New rabbit wants only grass and lettuce

[Bunnylova4eva]

That makes sense-I'd never thought about that before that the pellets require so much less chewing, and hadn't really thought about the water aspect of it either.

Right now, we're just now switching from bad alfalfa based pellets to Oxbow. Plus, I already was planning to bring down the ammount they receive (from 1/4 c. to 1/8 c.) Thinking of i now, I think that improvment is a big thing in and of itself, but I'll have to read more about and look into more about pellets-free diets.

 

[JBun]

So, can rabbits get all of the essential nutrients that they need from just hay and veggies? That would be my concern that my buns would get all the vitamins and minerals they need, and don't they need amino acids. So I'm just wondering how someone would balance a rabbits diet so they're getting everything they need, and what exactly is that?

 

[missyscove]

I certainly wouldn't advocate an all-pellet diet, but I also don't run a nutritional analysis on the hay and greens I offer my pet. That's why I like to offer a limited daily ration of pellets so that I can offer a generous amount of greens and unlimited hay with the confidence that the micronutrients in particular are there.

Geoff, would you also recommend against pellets in a growing rabbit? All of my pet rabbits have been adopted as an adult but personally I'm most concerned about adequate nutrition in growing animals of any species and that's definitely a case where I wouldn't want to find out too late that a nutrient was missing from the diet I was feeding.

 

[tamsin]

missyscove wrote:

I often think of the pellet portion of my rabbit's diet as a sort of multivitamin.

I think that is a good way of looking at it. Pellets are a convenient way to ensure you get all the necessary vitamins and minerals if you aren't able to offer a wide range of fresh foods or are worried about missing things out.

It's perfectly possible to create a balanced diet without them though - there is no magic ingredient you can't get elsewhere.

The healthiest diet for a rabbit would be fresh grass and a mix of leafy greens based on wild foods rather than human favoured fruits/vegetables. That's not always practical so you can substitute fresh grass for a mix of grass hays (even different types of grass have different nutrient balances) and the leaves/plants for veggies. If your veggie range isn't big enough, you can substitute a proportion of the fresh foods with pellets. You need a very small amount of pellets though - I feed about 10-20g per kg of rabbit.

 

[Geoff]

I have more mixed feelings about growing rabbits, but Susan Brown, one of the nation's experts on rabbit medicine is less ambivalent and does not really recommend pellets for them, either.

Hays by the way, are a bit more complex nutritionally than you might think, with many having a significant amoung of amino acids and proteins in them. Even lawn has a good smattering of nutrient supplies. The non-grass hays, which I do recommend giving in smaller amounts for young rabbits (mostly alfalfa hay) have even more in the way of proteins. You can also offer your rabbit some weeds and plants, including their flowers, and these items often fill in any missing blanks in the diets. Wild rabbits do quite well on their meager diets of grasses and misc. plants. Not too many wild rabbits eat pellets.

 

[missyscove]

Maybe I should qualify that I was an animal science major at Cornell and am now a first year vet student. I have had nutrition courses, I know my way around NRC tables and I've sent hay off for analysis when formulating diets for livestock.

That said, I don't have an analysis on the hay I get from the feed store. I know that its nutrient content will decrease with storage and I admit that I don't know when my hay was harvested. I do buy and grow greens specifically for my rabbit, but I am very careful not to offer him something if I don't know what it is and I monitor what goes on the plants I grow for him.
If I could sit down and formulate a total mixed ration for my rabbit, I would do it and I would feel confident that he's getting everything he needs, but frankly without nutritional analysis on everything else I'm offering him, I feel much better including a small amount of pellets in his diet.

Is there any research on the subject you could point me towards? I'd love to read more about it (sometime after midterms since canine and ovine nutrition was really the only nutrition that came up for us this block).

 

[tamsin]

The key is variety, I doubt most people calculate their nutrient intake let alone their bunnies but as long as you eat a healthy range of food including fruits & veggies - you'll generally be just fine

I know some people buy veggies specifically for their rabbit and they can tend to feed the same limited types of food every day, which is when you can find you are missing something.

Scamp gets a big range: fresh lawn grass, thistle, dandelion, apple, pear, grapes, kiwi, banana, carrot, parsnip, swede, butternut squash, blackberry leaves, grape leaves, raspberry leaves, strawberry, kale, hazel, apple leaves/branches, brocoli, cauli, rocket, cabbage, sweet pepper, ginko, basil and probably more I've forgotten.

All either collected from the garden or the peel/discarded leaves of the fruit/veggies we eat. Not all in one week but different things depending on our meals and what is in season.

He's had very limited pellets since he started on solids - he started on a couple of pellets a day and maxed out at around 10-15. We use them as treats when he's out exercising or put them in a treat ball for him to play with.

I don't think it is necessary to feed rabbits of any age ad lib pellets, and I don't think they are necessary at all if you don't want to include them, but I don't think it does any harm to feed small amounts either

There isn't much data for pet rabbits i.e. adult & neutered; it's mainly aimed towards growing and breeding rabbits.

 

[agnesthelion]

Zone3 wrote:

missyscove wrote:

Be sure you have him neutered well before introducing him to a female. It takes time for their hormones to die down.

Don't worry. I have ten years' experience of breeding/showing pedigreed cats behind me and I haven't had an oops litter.

:biggrin2:

I just had to comment here. Cats and rabbits are VERY different. A buck can impregnate a doe in a matter of seconds. Even the most experienced rabbit handlers are sometimes surprised to find a doe pregnant. They can "hump" and it doesn't even look like anything happened and a month later there are kits! there are even some RO members whose buns have some how mated through cage wires. They are clever little guys so be careful.

If you aren't intending on breeding, it's not even advisable to attempt a bond until both buns are fixed. Rabbits are very picky about their mates and fighting happens very easily. Hormones in unfixed rabbits just add to the chances of that happening.

 

[agnesthelion]

It's interesting to hear the non veggie diet perspective from a vet and people who are studying animals

I've researched a bit myself. I think non pellet diets are most obviously possible but I do think it takes extensive research to balance the vitamins and minerals they need. It's more than just offering a couple different veggies and some hay and calling it good. Wild rabbits do good with no pellets but theynalso have access to a world smorgasbord and have their instincts to help them eat what they should but domesticated rabbits require humans to get all their vitamins and minerals to them and have no way to tell us what they need.
Loved reading all the information on here. I research everything and it's good to hear new information on this.

 

[Geoff]

I think you give wild rabbits too much credit when it comes to instincts and what they should eat. A wild bunny will eat a bowl of dog food if it should happen to come across it and feel hungry at the time (wild bunnies almost always are hungry). they do tend to be very good about not eating toxic plants in general, but I think that is because most toxic plants taste bad (one way the plant has developed to keep from being eaten).

A rabbit's gi tract is a unique set of organs and their digestive strategy is unique as well... their cecum ferments the diet and many amino acids are extracted and the minutest amount of vitamins and minerals are concentrated... and most end up in the night feces, only to be re-eaten later and finally absorbed... this way rabbits can extract an amazing amount of nutrients from nearly nutrient-free material. Most rabbits do not need any additional supplemental vitamins, minerals or proteins when fed an all hay and green leafy diet. Even massive creatures like horses and cattle can extract most if not all the nutrients they need in their browse and their digestive strategy is even less complex than that of a rabbit (though having four stomachs as ruminants do seems like overkill sometimes... it works though!).

 

[Pipp]

Geoff, I think you give pet owners too much credit to interpret the true meaning of 'unlimited hay' and physically being able to supply an adequate volume of leafy greens.

RO (and the HRS) tends to advocate a small amount of pellets as a safety net. As rescuers and moderators of rabbit forums and Facebook pages and seeing a wide variety of issues, we know the pendulum can swing the other way -- from obese, GI challenged rabbits with bad teeth to underfed, under nourished and very unhappy pets.

The pet store bags of hay don't supply enough for the money. My rabbits here on average eat a half a pound a day, and a 2lb bag for $8 or $9 is not affordable. Pet owners handing their bunnies a handful of hay a day is the norm.

My rabbits can also eat their weight in greens, produce can be really pricey, and right now and a small bowl of lettuce is the average 'salad'. This is far from adequate.

Until there is a better job of qualifying and educating re: the 'no pellet' advice, it can be quite detrimental. The passionate bunny crowd are very likely to start equating pellets with 'toxic' and issue dire warnings to new owners.

And the many (many) broke or lazy guardians WILL starve their rabbits.

Until an alternative diet is is firmly entrenched in bunnyville, I'd keep the current advice, which is severe restrictions on pellets, the standard.

Meanwhile, we need to get across the volume and variety and encourage guardians and suppliers to look at their natural diet of grasses (fresh and dried), weeds, flowers, bark, etc, and educate about feeding produce and produce leftovers like fresh carrot tops, broccoli leaves, parsley stems, etc.. as the norm. And definitely much much larger bags of hay on the shelves.

Its the same with adequate housing. The vast majority of rabbit 'owners' out there are buying the best the pet stores offer and the rabbits are ending up in tiny tiny spaces with no cover, no traction and they all think that's okay.

So yes, you're right. But sometimes being right isn't always the best answer.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[Geoff]

perhaps we are spoiled here in California where there seem to be unlimited numbers of feed stores (for large animals) and horse barns, where large volumes of hay are easy to procure for nearly nothing (in fact, most horse barns will let you grab a trash bag of grass hay for nothing). Without unlimited availability of hay, one may have to find other foods to 'fill the gap'. I haven't personally seen a rabbit get underweight yet on hay and greens, but I suppose if it happened, I might recommend some timothy pellets to fill that gap. As long as moderation/restriction is practiced and pellet additives (non pellet food items in same bag) are strictly avoided, most likely most rabbits will do OK. For those that are having repeated bouts of stasis, however, I would try hard to avoid pellets altogether.

 

[majorv]

Geoff wrote:

I am in the group that think rabbits are far better off NOT eating any pellets... a diet of lettuce and hay is not that bad, though I would try to vary the green leafy part of his diet to a much wider variety... but personally I think a diet of hay (grass hays preferably) and leafy greens is ideal... and NO pellets is the preferred situation.

It looks like I may be in the minority on this forum, but perhaps most of you have not treated as many sick rabbits as I have (I have treated thousands over the last 26 years as a veterinarian)... you seen learn to listen to the other rabbit veterinary experts and take all rabbits off pellets (or at least severely restrict their intake of them)... and you get far less gastrointestinal problems that way.

Obviously, I disagree with your views. Most breeders will. We've been feeding our rabbits good quality pellets and hay for upwards of 6 years and have had NO GI stasis or gastro problems. On the other hand, I very commonly hear on this forum and othersof pet rabbits having all sorts of stasis and other problems and I tend to believe it's because they don't get a balanced diet.

 

[Bunnylova4eva]

Geoff wrote:

perhaps we are spoiled here in California where there seem to be unlimited numbers of feed stores (for large animals) and horse barns, where large volumes of hay are easy to procure for nearly nothing (in fact, most horse barns will let you grab a trash bag of grass hay for nothing). Without unlimited availability of hay, one may have to find other foods to 'fill the gap'. I haven't personally seen a rabbit get underweight yet on hay and greens, but I suppose if it happened, I might recommend some timothy pellets to fill that gap. As long as moderation/restriction is practiced and pellet additives (non pellet food items in same bag) are strictly avoided, most likely most rabbits will do OK. For those that are having repeated bouts of stasis, however, I would try hard to avoid pellets altogether.

I agree-I think bunnies were meant to have lots of fresh greens and hay. I'm working towards more greens and less pellets for our buns. Right now, we've just recently been switching to 1/4 c. Oxbow (timothy pellets) and unlimited hay. They don't get many veggies due to Ripley's upset tummy issues when he has too many. I'm hoping to get them to 1/8 c. and more greens. I feel like less processed thigns like pellets is always better.

Thanks so much for giving advice on this-it's great to hear from a vet's experience what works best.