Neutered Brother Bunnies Fighting

[SN8Bunnies]

Hello,

My girlfriend and I have two French Lop bunnies, Coco & Musk, they were born in July 2012 and we bought them in Oct 2012 at exactly the same time. At first, we bought one large cage and they did everything together. We got them neutered as soon as was possible, but unfortunately before that point (Dec 2012) Coco had to have an operation as there was a fight in the cage and his skin was torn. After that we got another cage, exactly the same as the first, and they have lived side by side ever since. We still let them out at the same time every evening, and everything was fine, they would clean each other, sleep on/next to each other and we thought we had cracked it! We went away for a weekend in Mar 2013 and a got a friend to feed them and let them out, and one evening they had a fight under the sofa and this time it was Musk that required surgery. Since that point, we generally let them out at separate times, if we do let them out together we are very cautious, and very observant. One second they can be fine, cuddled up together, the next its like WW3! Musk will try to mount Coco, Coco will get fed up and bite Musk. Musk is much bigger and much more confident, Coco seems to hide away most of the time he is out of his cage, but we love them both the same and would love to see our Bunny Brothers playing together like they did at a young age.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, the Bunnies are happy as things are, and we make sure that both are let out of the cages every evening, but im sure they would love to be best buddies again

Thanks

 

[Imbrium]

Welcome to RO!

Bunnies don't do the "casual friends" thing - unless they're fully bonded (and live together 24/7), fights can break out with little or no notice. It sounds like you've been trying to bond them and having some success but also significant setbacks. Same sex bonds can be a bit tricky and the same goes for bonds that get off to a rocky start... but if you're persistent and patient, there's still hope for these two (especially since you have one that sounds dominant and one that sounds submissive).

The most important thing - by far - to remember about bonding is that for every "rule," there are exceptions. There is no one "right" way. What works for one person and their bunnies doesn't necessarily work for others. Be open to trying different bonding tactics and be quick to try something different if your current approach doesn't seem to be working.

One thing that could be helpful is if you keep them in completely different rooms/let them out each day in different areas (so that they never see or smell each other) for 3-4 weeks - this would essentially "reboot" things and give you a fresh start, eliminating any grudges they might hold over previous fights. The grudges could be part of the problem here - they get along for a while and then suddenly someone remembers, "oh yeah, you're that guy that pissed me off last week!!"

Another thing is that when you have them out together, you need to do that on *neutral* territory for a while - somewhere neither boy has been. My girls' bond has broken a couple times (due to my submissive girl rebelling against the dominant one); both times, a long play-date on truly neutral territory was able to repair things.

My favorite site for bonding info is http://www.wheekwheekthump.com/?s=bonding (it has numerous wonderful articles) - you may find it very helpful! The author of the articles takes a fairly unconventional and very effective approach to bonding .

 

[SN8Bunnies]

Thank you very much for getting back to me so quickly,

Before the first fight in the cage they were best buddies, they did everything together, so we had assumed that the bonding had already happened? We had them at home about 6-8 weeks before the first fight, they were bought from the same shop, from the same litter, at the same time. They were 12 weeks old when we bought them and theyd been together every day since birth.

Their cages are both in the Study side by side, and we let one out in the living room with us, and one is free to roam the study (no access to the other bunnies cage and the room has been bunny-proofed!) Would it be ok to move one cage into the Living Room with us and keep the other in the Study? Each evening we will let them out in there respective areas, and keep things like that for 3-4 weeks or do you think we should use another room as the Living Room is where they will mainly be out together? We have a spare bedroom that we can bond them in that neither rabbit has ever been in.

Once bonded (hopefully) will it make any difference that they are in separate cages during the daytime and out together at night time?

Thanks again,

 

[selbert]

The sad thing is that when their hormones kick in, the bond they had at the beginning seems to be forgotten. The buns become over whelmed with hormones and just seem to forget. I think in some cases, this isn't true, but every pair of rabbits are completely different. Which is why I suppose bonding can be a tricky one.

I think it would be a great idea to move one into the living room and use the spare bedroom for their little bunny dates. Then after you feel their bond is strong again, I'm sure they could live together once more.

I hope they bond well again! Good luck, all the best!

:brownbunny

 

[SN8Bunnies]

I also dont understand why Musk still tries to mount Coco, i thought this would stop after they had both been neutered? Is this becuase the bond was broken and they havnt been rebonded?

 

[Imbrium]

The bond they form as babies *can* carry over to adulthood, but only if they make it to their spay/neuter dates without their hormones kicking in and causing them to fight and only if they're never separated (either as a precaution or due to fighting)... and even then, bonds can break. My girls' bond broke for the first time a few days after they were spayed even though they'd never fought before that (perhaps it was being confined in a small recovery cage that led to it; they ended up recovering separately after that and then I re-bonded them).

Humping can be caused by hormones, but it can also be totally unrelated to them - even spayed/neutered bunns whose hormones are completely out of their systems can hump as a display of dominance. One of my girls (both neutered over a year ago) humped the other one earlier this morning during a bonding session with Normie, a neutered male I'm attempting to bond to my pair of girls.

When Musk humps Coco, he's announcing his desire to be the dominant one in the relationship. If Coco tolerates the humping at first (before getting fed up enough to fight Musk off), that likely indicates a willingness to be the submissive bunny... what you want to have happen is for Musk to accept the sign of submission and stop his humping *before* Coco gets irritated enough to attack him over it. One possible reason that the sign is being ignored is that they're not on neutral territory - a bunny who feels the territory is HIS will generally be more insistent about the humping than if the encounter were taking place on neutral territory.

During playdates, you want to allow humping *but* break it up before the humpee gets pissed off - ideally, let it go a few seconds and then use your foot, a spray bottle filled with water, a loud noise, whatever to disrupt things. Today, I couldn't find the noisemaker and the water bottle had broken, so I used the vacuum cleaner and/or banged a piece of 1/2'' PVC pipe against the bonding pen to break up unwanted behavior . Chasing should always be interrupted ASAP, as should fighting that appears truly vicious... however, humping, a little bit of nipping, minor scuffles, etc. should be allowed to go on for a few seconds (to give the bunnies time to try to sort things out themselves) before you intervene.

I had my first serious bonding session with Nala, Gaz and Normie today and video-taped the entire thing (nearly an hour of footage split into two videos) and will be posting it in my trio-bonding blog tonight or tomorrow (it's over 3 GB total so it's going to take ages to upload to YouTube, heh)... if you're not sure what to expect during a bonding session, you may find it helpful to watch some of it. Most of the activity in the video is between Nala and Normie; Gaz loafed it up more than anything (in other words, you'd see a lot of one-on-one interaction). They didn't exactly hit it off and Nala's a runner, so I had to break up a lot of chasing and such.

 

[SN8Bunnies]

Thank you very much for the advice, we will separate them this evening and leave it this way for the next 4 weeks, after this they will be kept separate but we will bond them in the un-used spare room where neither have been.

How long and how often should i try to re-bond them? should i include treats and other toys in the room as well?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but i just really want this to work!

 

[Imbrium]

Honestly, all of that is too subjective to give firm answers about - what's a good idea in one situation can be a bad idea in another ><

For example, I'm pretty sure I've heard somewhere that you shouldn't feed rabbits together during a bonding session (one reason being because it can cause food aggression)... however, I had a big tub of leafy greens in the pen when I did my bonding session today. In the mini-sessions I'd had previously, Normie's hormones were making him very hump-happy (he was neutered on Dec. 22nd and it takes up to 6-8 weeks for a male's hormones to be totally gone) and that wasn't going over well with my girls. Normie is a FIEND for leafy greens, so I put a very generous portion in there in hopes of it creating a diversion so that there was more on his mind than *just* humping. It actually worked even better than I hoped it would!

I started out with no toys, then ended up adding a few (specifically choosing ones I knew all the bunnies were pretty "meh" towards). Toys are also a "could go either way" thing - you don't want them so into playing or eating that they're not paying attention to each other, as that means they're not sorting things out and forging a bond. Part of my decision to bring toys and food into the equation this time was that I planned from the start to do a pretty lengthy bonding session, so I wanted to have ways to break the tension when need be. When I was doing 15 min or less sessions, I didn't provide food, a litter box or toys.

As for how often to have sessions, that's another "play it by ear" thing. To some degree, you just have to pick a frequency somewhat randomly at first and then adjust to more or less often if what you started with doesn't seem to be working (ditto for length).

I kept things short and infrequent until Norman's hormones seemed mostly gone and I was more likely to get positive results from longer sessions. I'm honestly not sure yet how soon I plan to do another one. The girls are in the living room/Normie's in a hallway and bathroom, but they can see each other through the doorway between the living room and the little hall (which is blocked by a door I ghetto-rigged out of window screen and 1x2s ) and Norm also slips out into the living room sometimes when one of us humans opens the door - he usually goes straight to the girls' pen and they sometimes sniff at each other through the bars before he gets escorted back to where he belongs. I've been letting them tell me when it's time to do another bonding session (I couldn't even begin to explain how I know, heh... it takes a bit of mind-reading).

The bad news is that research, reading other peoples' experiences, etc. can only ever teach you maybe half of what you need to know to bond rabbits - the other half involves listening to your gut, being able to read bunnies' minds, intuition, all that stuff that you can only learn through experience. That may sound very intimidating... but in my experience, most people are far better at those things than they realize - the hard part is simply learning to listen to your instincts!

The good news is that if you somehow manage to screw it up royally (which you probably won't), you can always separate them for a month or so again later to get another reboot - in other words, there's no reason to be paranoid about "ruining things forever"!

 

[SN8Bunnies]

Thank you so much for your help, i am looking forward to starting this tonight and hopefully have the bunnies running around together soon!

thanks again

 

[zombiesue]

It all really depends on the rabbit. If they have no history of being food-aggressive, it's okay to introduce food into bonding sessions right away. You can always stop if it doesn't work. I introduced my rabbits with food right away.

Keep in mind that sometimes bonding can take months...!

 

[SN8Bunnies]

Hi,

My girlfriend and I hosted our first bunny date at the weekend! Coco & Musk have been in differenet rooms with different exercise rooms, and we put them in a bedroom upstairs that neither have been in before.

Musk was still happy to run around, lay down, explore. However, Coco would not move far from us at all, and just wanted to be close to us.

They showed a bit of interaction, not much really, a few little sniffs and both put there head down for the other to clean, neither of which did! Musk did mount Coco for a short period of time, then we moved them back to there separate areas.

What sort of things should we be doing during these dates? What sort of things shouldnt happen? Should we let Musk mount Coco and just let them get on with it?

Thanks again for your help