Need Encouragement Please!

[SDShorty]

So my bonding with my new bun Enkei and my old bun Dori is not going as well as I had hoped. I have had my baby Dori for almost 2 years now, and Enkei is the new boy in town. She is about 2 1/2 and he's about 9 months. When we introduced them at the House Rabbit Society she adored him! She was even licking his ears and gromming his head. But when we got home she totally turned. Now she loves to cuddle up with him and likes to interact with him through the bars (their cages are attached next to each other), but as soon as I let them loose togehter she starts trying to mount him, nips/bites his bottom, he gets defensive and tries to bite her back, and then it goes downhill from there .

Today is only 1 week since Enkei came home with us, so I"m trying to not be discouraged. My fear is that they won't ever bond, but they told me at the House Rabbit Society that it could take weeks, or even a couple months sometimes for it to happen.

So in an attempt to help my heart from getting further discouraged, would any of you have any encouraging tales of bonding that you'd be willing to tell? Have you had buns that maybe hated each other at first and eventually bonded? How long has it taken for you to bond your buns in the past and how did their interaction go at first?

Thank you!

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Bonding can sometimes be a long process, as you're noticing.
My thought on your situation is that your girl was plenty delighted with Enkei at the HRS. Neutral territory, right?

Her cage and your house are "hers". Now that this weird bun is now in her living space, she feels very threatened.
Bonding activities must always take place in neutral territory. Think of a room that Dori has never been in, and doesn't believe that she owns.

I'm assuming we're not drawing blood here, right? If there's no blood, it is nipping, which indicates that Dori is asserting dominance (this is also what the humping means). She is putting Enkei in his place. However, Enkei, being a young buck, almost teenage bunny, is being cocky and attempting to assert his dominance over her. Thus, things appear to go "downhill" as you put it.

Bonding occurs a lot faster on neutral territory, as you observed at the HRS. I don't know what room you have available to you, but if you've got NIC cubes, build two small cages in a neutral area. New cages have no previous Dori or Enkei smells that indicate "mine".
That way, the positive interaction will continue between the bars of the cage, as well as outside.

I can't blame Dori for not wanting someone else on her turf. That was my mistake with Stuart and Slatey. Un-neutered Stuart, surprised Slatey on Slatey's territory. That was my error in not recognizing the social graces and property rights of my "old" bun.

They will work it out. You got very good signs at the HRS. It is now up to you to reproduce that neutral space, so that Dori can focus on making friends, rather than defending her territory.

BTW, if either rabbit is currently un-neutered, I would hold off on any attempted bonding exercises until desexing occurs. Hormones complicate matters too much... Evie would have bonded with Slatey more successfully if I had allowed her more time to adjust to her new living situation, and if she had been spayed. As it was, there was too much sexual tension on her part.

Give it some time. Enkei is getting used to his new home right now... its a lot to throw at him in only a week It'll all work out, I'm sure.

ETA: Lots of treats, and "feel good" events like patting (if that's what they like) should happen, so that they recognize that positive things happen when the other rabbit is nearby. Always try to end a bonding exercise on a positive note

 

[Maureen Las]

It's possible that she feels the whole house is hers and is defending her space. You could try car rides in a carrier or putting them somewhere where she is unsure of herself. She is probably the dominant one anyway

I had one easy bond between a very young male and an adult female; didn't have to do anything to bond them . They loved each other right away

but....

that was once and bonding for me with my other buns has been difficult

i would not give up on it how ever and maybe read the library articles on it if you haven't already
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12072&forum_id=17

 

[Maureen Las]

Norther Autumn.... we posted the same info at the same time

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Always good to follow in your footsteps, Maureen:biggrin2:

 

[SDShorty]

Thank you for the advice . Unfortunately I live in a small 600 sq ft apartment, and there are no rooms in this house Dori wouldn't consider 'hers' since she is a free roaming rabbit here. So there would be nowhere I could put them other than where they are now, his cage next to hers. I did ask the HRS about this (my lack of living space) before I considered adoption, and they told me that this would be fine, and that it was ideal for me to put him next to her current cage anyway *shrug*, so I"m guessing because they knew I didn't have the space to make my situation any different they figured I could make it work this way. I do have CC cages, but unfortunately not a whole lot of living space for my apartment. The only neutral territory I can put them in to bond is either in the carrier outside of the apartment, although they have no problems being in a carrier together. When I put them in the carrier they shuffle around a little but soon they settle down and cuddle up, so there is no problem there. I've tried dates in different places around the apartment, such as the kitchen or the middle of the living room, but I think sadly Dori is going to consider it 'her' space no matter where I try to bond them. So I am just going to have to deal with that extra challenge now . But like you all said, its only been 1 week, so I'm not giving up just yet .

The nipping hasn't drawn blood, because well I haven't given it a chance, hehe. As soon as they lunge at each other they either a) one of them runs away and frantically tries to leave the pen somehow or b) I separate immediately before the scuffle begins. I was wondering about the mounting. I read somewhere that as long as the other bun doesn't try to run its ok, but should I allow Dori to keep mounting Enkei or remove her when she does? He seems to get pretty defensive after she does this, that's when he tries to nip her bottom and they both get hyper and upset.

I wanted to share some pics of the 'happy' moments I have captured so far in their calm cuddling phases (Dori is the black one):

During a date, when I make them lay next to each other

What they do on a regular basis with the bars in between

 

[NorthernAutumn]

The fact that they are even that close to eachother in such a short period of time, indicates to me that they are bonding quickly. My guys never got that close for 3-4 weeks.
You're doing great.
To make territory neutral, you can remove all fabric and wash it heavily, and wash everything else down with a vinegar-water solution. As it sounds like your whole house is Dori's, maybe restrict the "out" play area to a space that you can easily neutralize?
Some people like to use the bath tub too...

Again, it looks like they are getting on really well for only a week....

 

[kherrmann3]

Being that you're in California, and it's warm(er) there, you could take both of them outside and try a date in your car. You don't necessarily need to take them for a ride, but just try a date on the seat might work. It's probably neutral territory!

 

[SDShorty]

I was able to find some neutral territory today! I cleaned out my back porch from all the Xmas stuff, and swept it well . So I put them both out there today, and it was very positive. They lasted at least 10 minutes together walking around without any major incidents. The got a little nervous when the came together and nudged each other with their heads, and a little nip here and there, but nothing big. At the very end they almost scuffled and nipped each other a few times and Enkei was trying to follow Dori around, it almost seemed like he was trying to instigate a fight. So I ended the date before it escalated. So it was a good day today!

 

[kherrmann3]

I find that petting both of their heads while they are near each other helps (in the case of my two that I am currently bonding). I just pet their heads while they are near each other, and sometimes, if I pet Toby on his sides, he starts licking whatever is in front of his face. I've gotten him to groom Emma that way!