need emergency bunny vet in detroit area and some information

[b24karrot]

So my girlfriend and I have done a TON of reading these past few weeks, and I mean a TON. We have read all the material from this forum plus quite a bit from other places, plus quite a few personal stories from people who have had buns with abscesses and if there is one conclusion we have come to it is that NO ONE actually has ONE answer.
Some call for surgery with bicillin and azithromiacin while others call for surgery with different antibiotics, still others call for surgery with the beads and others call for surgery without the beads, some say sew the wound up others say leave it open to heal from the inside out. We even read some stories where people had their buns have up to 8 surgeries in one year for reoccuring abscesses. Really no one has the right answer. And although Randy you are very helpful you are not here and do not seem to want to share your treatments with lay people so your thoughts on treatment without surgery is really not that helpful. Obviously you seem to know more than most vets because we have had Cole to 3 vets, one of which works for the Michigan house rabbit society and even she recomended surgery, all of them did. If you were willing to tell us what meds to use in what dosages we would probably go with that Randy, but we can not fly or drive Cole to you so we must use what we have here.

So that being said, we have decided to go with surgery, with the beads and with the two cillins. While he is under the doc is going to remove the teeth that need removed and file down the ones that need that. We have tried every grass and hay known to man and Cole simply will not eat any of it, so he has been on a twice a day hand feeding of Critical care to get his extra fiber.

Once Cole is healed he will be on a 3 times a day Critical care feeding.

Cole has been on Baytril and a pro biotic for 3 weeks now and the abscess has actually shrunk quite a bit and the doc believes she can get it removed fully encapsulated without breaking it. He has been eating like a champ, poops are great and drinking tons of water, he is a little trooper. With all the docs and the surgery and after care meds we are looking at close to $3500, but he is well worth it.

We have also decided that if he should get another abscess after this then we nned o consider putting him to sleep since we do not want to put him through countless surgeries and all the pain that comes with healing, but we are hoping the treatment we have come up with will do the trick. He is a tough little guy who has a great will to survive and we have good feelings all around.

Thank you all for your imput it was great to have the thoughts and ideas.

And Randy if you ever decide to move Michigan is a great place to be, LOL.

 

[b24karrot]

I forgot to mention that the docs agree from the exams and the x rays that this is NOT a tooth root abscess but a separate abscess all together on it's own.

 

[Pipp]

Well first off, $3500 is ridiculous for removing an abscess.

Secondly, if the weaker antibiotic is shrinking it, why not try a stronger combination, ie: the Zithromax and Bicillin first? It doesn't preclude the surgery. If it doesn't eliminate it, THEN do the surgery.

I'm pretty confused by your post.

ETA: If the Vet said the alfalfa was bad because of calcium and not protein or calories, I'd say that Vet is not up to date.

A lot has changed in the last few years, whatever you're reading, make sure it's current.

Also, different abscesses require different treatments, there is certainly no one treatment fits all.

And sorry, missed the dental aspects, although $3500 is still extremely high, even with the dental surgery.


sas :?

 

[b24karrot]

First off my post clearly states that ALL the doc visits AND the surgery will cost a total of $3500. That means we saw SEVERAL doctors who all performed their own tests, each with their own costs. This includes a number of cytologies, cultures, x rays, meds, critical care, gas to drive to docs, some of which were 45 mins one way.

Second ALL of the docs agree that the abscess needs to be removed that is why we chose surgery. 3 of those docs are listed here in this forum as Rabbit savvy doctors and 1 of which works for the Michigan House Rabbit Society.


Lastly I am not exactly sure how to take the tone of your post. If I am not welcome here then simply state that, don't make me feel like a fool about my post, quite frankly I don't need or deserve it.

 

[Pipp]

You're reading things into the post that don't exist. I'm sure I've missed all sorts of things in this thread, easy to do, clearly said or not, I'll apologize for that. There's an awful lot of issues and information to sort through, and it's not fresh, have to re-acquaint.

I still don't see the dental references. There's no tooth root involvement, but I gather he has rotten teeth? Or just elongated roots? Molar spurs are pretty easy to deal with, my Vet charges $80 for that. I'd love to see the estimate. They don't need to be charging for any overnight care or feedings at the clinic, you seem more than capable of caring for your rabbit.

The teeth may be what is affecting the breathing, or he has respiratory infection on top of everything else. But with all the tests run, I'm sure they have a really good idea as to what is what.

Head x-rays should have told the tale, but I'm not sure what they revealed.

The 'dewlap' issue appears to be separate, although one you have an immune-challenged rabbit, you get all kinds of accompanying issues. If it is unrelated and encapsulated, then surgery is probably the best bet, yes, it should be a simple one. If it did involve the bone, then antibiotics alone may be the best bet. I think the post-op care will determine whether to open or close the wound.

But considering all the other abscesses, I'm not clear why the Vets are sticking to just Baytril and not going for the big guns before attempting surgery. It just may take care of the dewlap abscess as well.

What's the state of his breathing, nasal discharge, eyes, etc, now?

We focus on the rabbits, the last thing we worry about is the tone of a post. (Otherwise I might have mentioned that it sounds like you're blaming Randy for something, but there's just too much stuff to read through and it's too late to look at it with a non-fuzzy brain, so we won't go there. And no, that isn't confrontational).

I still won't trust a Vet that says alfalfa is bad because of calcium, though, if that's what was said. Unless he has bladder or kidney stones?

You're asking for opinions (aren't you?).

And if he gets one more abscess, I'd be happy to fly him here rather than to see him put down. I'm not sure why that would be an option prior to trying a range of antibiotics. But they DID do cultures, so I'm not sure what's going on there, either.

We're just looking at trying to communicate too much information in too small a space (and time frame). This is probably worth a 10-page medical report. No need to get edgy over it, we'll just try and work through it.

sas :?

 

[Pipp]

b24karrot wrote:

My vet said hat he had terrible teeth probably due to malnutrition and being out in the cold so long. You should see the x ray of his teeth, they are all going in different direction and none of them are even. He has drainage from his eye which the doc said is more than likely caused by the teeth problems. He has already had one tooth removed and a large abscess on his jaw cut out. The deal with the vet was if I took him any and all problems related to or caused by the teeth they would pay for, but at this point I would really rather have an absolute bunny expert take care of him and pay the extra cost. He is very closely bonded to one of my other boys buns and too lose him would break all our hearts..

The question here is which teeth are going different directions? Is this a tooth root thing, an incisor thing or is he referring to the molars?

And none of the three Vets suggested the zithromax (or chlorpalm or whatever), bicillin oral/injected combo? That's still the part that's confusing me.

Did this surgery cure the eye issue? What issues are remaining?

I also didn't realize you've had him over a year now.

This may be in a post somewhere, sorry for asking again, but what antibiotics has he been on, and how long did he stay on them?

PS: Is the 'alfalfa/calcium' Vet the same one as the 'brie cheese/not an abscess' Vet?


sas :clover:

 

[b24karrot]

Cole was dumped outside two Decembers ago in Northern Michigan..................he was brought to my vet and my vet was asked to put him down, he was seriously mal nourished, and had many other problems but they kept him and nursed him the best they could. His teeth are all very crooked, and I mean very bad, none of them line up and some of them have roots under each other, there are even some teeth that are on top of others, so several teeth need to be removed and others need serious filing down.

His eye ooze is cause by the tooth problems and his nasal discharge has all cleaned up.

This is his second abscess, the first one was treated first with cillins then when that did not work surgery was done, this new abscess is not in the same spot but close to the old one. Because of the type of abscess it is all the docs recomended surgery.

My comment to Randy was based on the fact that in a couple posts he mentions "out of the box" treatments or "unusual Treatments" but never gives info on what those are. As I said in my post if Randy wants to tell me what to treat with in what dosages I will be happy to treat that way. As I am sure Randy's form of treatment is the best.

 

[b24karrot]

All the teeth are going in different directions, he does not have one straight tooth in his mouth, even his front teeth veer off to two different sides.and that is after having them filed down. The vet from the House rabbit society said she had never seen rabbit teeth that bad before, she was amazed he could eat any kind of pellet at all.

He has been on zithromicin, baytril, two thers that I can not recall right now.

The alfafa vet and the cheese vet are two different vets and they were not either included in the 3 opinions I got.

 

[Pipp]

Oh sweet! Sounds like he's doing well if the eye and nasal discharge is gone. That was part of the confusion.

If its an unattached and unrelated abscess (encapsulated), and he doesn't have any other infections needing antibiotics, then surgery is more logical.

Abscesses, as I'm sure you've learned, can have tentacles and can keep coming back, but if this one isn't attached to anything, that's great. The 'dewlap' one is close to the jaw area?

Which 'cillins' didn't work? It usually takes an oral/injectable combo. The Zithromax or ChlorPalm part of the equation is pretty important.

Randy is a strong supporter of the Zithro/Bicillin (or PenG?) combo, but wouldn't legally be able to give you dosing information, that's up to the Vets to tell you that.

Hopefully he can add to all this. Just not with dosing info.

What does the Vet say about this recommendation? (And is this the 'brie cheese' Vet?)

So two conflicting points: If it has shrunk with Baytril, I still may take a stab at something stronger first.

However, if he needs dental surgery anyway, then might as well remove it surgically.

Or vice-versa. If its an easy-to-surgically-remove abscess, might as well do the dental at the same time.

But if they're removing molars, that's not minor surgery.

I'll leave that for Angieluv and Randy to comment on, though. I haven't had to cross that bridge with my herd.


ETA: Just saw your other post, the teeth 'going in all directions' are the incisors, and trimming those and the uneven molars are pretty common. Are they removing the incisors or molars?

sas :clover:

 

[b24karrot]

Sas,

I did not know that Randy could not give dosing info, that is where MY problem was. I found it to be a little strange that he would tell me how all the abscesses he treated did not need surgery because of how he treated them but then offer no help as to hot TO treat them, that was MY mistake NOT his, so I am sorry for that.

I am not sure which teeth will be removed as I was so upset about the whole issue I left the room and my girlfriend got all that info and as it is 5 am here she is sound asleep, I am the night owl.

I do know when I saw the x ray I had never seen anything like it, there were actual teeth on top of teeth, very strange.

He has had breathing problems the whole time my vet and I have had him. When he lays down he kind of has this strange sound when he breathes, kind of almost like a cry, but his lungs are clear and show no sign of infection.

He looks to me like he should have been a much bigger bunny than his 4 pounds, almost like everything about him was stunted due to being dumped outside in the middle of a freezing Northern Michigan winter.

He is a very good boy, very loving and cuddly, and even LOVES his critical care. When Krista feeds it to him when she pulls the syringe away to give him a breath he grabs it with his paws and pulls it back towards him and starts sucking on it, he knows it is good for him.

This rabbit amazes me every day with his will to live and love of the life we have given him.

Thanks for all the thoughts I will go over all of this with Krista in the morning, or rather afternoon when I get up.

Thanks again.

 

[aurora369]

Some of the medication dosing is available on Medirabbit
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

Azithromycin is the drug name for Zithromax, and according to Medirabbit, it is dosed at 30-50 mg/kg. This is the dosing protocol my vet and I used when treating a difficult upper respitory infection with one of my rabbits.

Have a look through the dosing information on Medirabbit, and perhaps you can print it out with you to bring to the vets office to discuss dosing amounts with your vet.

-Dawn

 

[Pipp]

All rabbits actually have 'teeth on top of teeth', they're very hard to see though. They have 'peg' teeth behind the incisors, the big front ones we always see. They will grow in odd manners with some rabbits.

The molars also can have sharp edges that need regular filing. Critical Care will keep the rabbit healthy to an extent, but it won't help them keep their teeth worn down, so its a bit chicken-or-the-egg.

He may not be able to comfortably chew hay and veggies, but by not doing so, he'll never keep his teeth in check, so if he can be convinced to eat grass, hay, stemmy veggies like carrot tops, kale, broccoli stems or whatever, it will help him and your wallet.

I have a dwarf here (another genetically challenged breed when it comes to teeth issues) who will gladly live on pellets and Critical Care and let me pay to get her molar spurs filed every six weeks. (My Vet calls it SBS -- spoiled bunny syndrome).

But I now force the issue, I insist that she eats a ton of veggies (she won't touch hay or grass either) and the dental visits are annual.

Here's a pic of some REALLY bad neglected incisors. I'm sure Cole would look the same if he didn't have you around. He's a lucky bunny.



sas :clover:


View attachment greenwichdental1.bmp

 

[b24karrot]

OMG I would NEVER let any of my buns get like that. That is horrid!!!!!!!

Well I have seen x rays of my other rabbits teeth and then I saw Coles, and they were much much different. Coles x ray was kind of science fictiony, actually.

Thanks for the dosing info I will check it out and print it out to take to the vet with us.

Cole will eat broccoli and the stem, one of the few veggies he will eat, but Randy had said to steer clear of broccoli, so we took him off of it. He will also eat brussel sprouts, LOVES both those veggies and that seems to be it.

We tried every grass and hay that OXbow carries and he would not touch any of it.

How do you "insist" the bunny eat the veggies? We have tried several different veggies with Cole and he just lets them sit there for the whole day and never touches it, and I am afraid to not give him his pellets and juts hope he gets it through his head to eat the veggies cause then I am afraid the little pooper will not eat anything, just to be stubborn.

 

[Pipp]

Thanks Dawn.

That is an awesome site based in Switzerland staffed by Vets/biologists. They are 'cutting edge.' They will also consult with your Vet via email.

Randy is not a Vet himself, he is a wildlife rehabber with a ton of experience, and cannot go too far with specific treatment advice, but he will also gladly chat with your Vet about protocols, although Vets often will not want to consult with non-Vets. Which is too bad, really. He knows his stuff.

He's been pretty busy lately but I'm sure he'll be checking in.

Meanwhile, I'll watch for info about the extractions.


sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

Cole's breathing issue may well be tooth root-related. My Vet most often lets that one slide unless there's infection or its really interfering, but I'm sure there are many opinions on that one. In Cole's case, he has a lot more going on.

Broccoli is fine in moderation. If it didn't bother him then, it won't now. I find carrot stems, kale (including stems), broccoli leaves, celery leaves, Italian parsley and cilantro to be the 'teeth' staples here. The key is variety -- and hunger. If he's filling himself up on pellets, he won't want anything else that isn't a 'treat' (like carrot or other favorites). You can still find veggies he likes, though, and slowly cut back his pellets.

Pipp will starve before she'll eat hay, but if the pellets aren't around at dinner time, she tucks into her salad. I slowly started giving her less pellets and more veggies, and now THIS is her dinner:

She gets maybe a tablespoon full of pellets, but that's it.

Vets and rabbit guardians are slowly coming around to a healthy diet being vegetation-heavy.

I've had great luck with it. I've had rescue bunnies with digestive issues, weight issues, teeth issues and nutrient deficiencies all improve drastically after a few months here. I buy hay by the bale and get 'compost' veggies from the Whole Foods store.

So far, so good. There may be the odd bout of gas, but well worth the trade-off.



sas :bunnydance:

 

[b24karrot]

Today was surgery day for Cole. We just heard from the vet and all is well, thank goodness.

The doc did not do any extractions as when she got into the abscess area the encapsulated ball was wrapped around attached to his jugular. The doc said if we had waited much longer she believed the abscess might have cut off his blood supply. So because that part of the surgery was so time consuming and so taxing she did not want him under for too long so she just did some filing and clipping of his teeth and finished up.

His heart rate is good and he is resting now we can pick him up in an hour. They will have our meds ready for us and he will come home to start his recovery..

Thank you all again so much for everything, Sas, Randy, Dawn, every one, you were all very helpful, thanks again for Cole and us.

 

[tonyshuman]

I'll be thinking of you guys.

I think, in my non-professional opinion, that this was one of those situations where removing the abscess was the best course, especially given the location.

 

[b24karrot]

Thanks. Just got him home. holding him as I type.

Saw the abscess, size of a walnut/golf ball hard as a rock with its own blood source right from the jugular. Doc said from what she could tell no fingers or tentcles, clean removal.

His temp is a little low so I have him wrapped up against my chest.

We have cillins and our metcam, now just gotta get him back to normal.

Thanks for the well wishes.