my lionhead attacked my hand, help!

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iwannabeam3

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so the past two nights when ive told coconut goodnight(giving him his food for the night petting him and just playing with him a little he has attacked my hand by pounching on it and even biting my hand twice. Now this was before i put food in but was petting him and just trying to play by shaking his little boxes he drags around. does anyone have any ideas on why he is doing this? could it be he doesnt want me playing with his boxes or what? :(
 
First thought that came to me was that he's ready to be neutered.

I know others may think differently, but I think it's best to keep hands out of the cage unless necessary. I keep the dishes near the entrance and avoid petting them while they are in their cage. If he was waiting for his food, he probably didn't appreciate you messing with his space. I view their cage as their safe zone, their sanctuary, the one place that they know they won't be bothered or pestered. I save the petting for when they are out of their cage.

Seldom will a rabbit bite without first giving warning signs. They warn with their body language. Here's a good site on bunny language:
http://language.rabbitspeak.com/

 
Don't let him learn to bite to get what he wants, you'll regret it. Be the alpha and pin him like another rabbit would do--there's been a lot of posts on this same topic. He needs to tolerate your presence as there are many things that need doing in his hutch besides cleaning and feeding. Got to let them know attacking you is not accceptable.
 
Wait wait wait... since when did the alpha crap get converted over to rabbits too? And WHEN in the world did rabbits start pinning each other? I've seen them jump one another and hump.. but pin? Oh boy is all I can say...

I completely disagree with this tactic. You can teach a rabbit to be okay with your presence in his cage WITHOUT scaring/forcing him. Aversive techniques don't teach the animal to LIKE you in their presence, it just teaches them that a behavior turns you into a big scary thing - which can make them fear you or even shut down in your presence. I'd much prefer my animals LIKED me around them.

I apologize if I come off rude.. Buuttt... I'm pretty passionate about this. I may be a dog trainer, and not a rabbit trainer, but positive reinforcement can work on any animal.
 
Larry is right. He may have worded it to where you are envisioning what a dog does OR maybe you are thinking he means more forceful tactics you may use with a dog, but that's not what he means.

Momma buns "pin" or push down on kits head/shoulder areas to teach them so it is a very common tactic for humans to use on their rabbits as well. I myself have used it :) of course, it is done gently (but firmly) and only hold them there for a few seconds but it definetly works.

Being alpha is most definetly needed to "train" rabbits. Again, different tactics when you are speaking of dogs, but if you back down from unwanted behavior inna bunny, it teaches them to continue said behavior and they will walk all over you :)

So in this situation, with a bunny biting and lunging at the hand, there is opinion that some assertiveness on the owners part should be taken. Sometimes you can even pick up bunny and flip on their back just to reiterate, so to speak, who is top bun.

With all that being said, sometimes cage aggressiveness (if this is what this is) cannot be avoided with some rabbits. They can be sweet as pie out of the cage, but different inside. I myself have never even let them get cage aggressive. I reach in, touch them, grab food bowls, pick them up, just to make sure they know I'm alpha bun.
 
Y'see though... backing down vs standing your ground is far different to me than grabbing a rabbit and pinning it when there is likely a REASON(territorial, fearful, hormonal, etc) behind the behavior and all this would do is act as a cover up and not fix the problem behind the behavior. Did it scare him to have his boxes rattled? If so, using this tactic of pinning could be more detrimental than anything.

Positive reinforcement works with all animals and all people - with the exception of the individual, 9 times out of 10, it works.

It's not hard to teach them an association of 'When her hand is in my cage, good things happen'.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to act like I know better or anything. I'm just basing this off of research I've done on positive reinforcement, from some of the best behaviorists in the world. Karen Pryor, Dr. Sophia Yin, etc who have all used these tactics on VARIOUS animals with great results. Training an incompatible behavior, or training an animal a positive association works fantastic in any species(except maybe my snake who could very well associate the rat going into the tank with my hand going into the tank and always expect food - but he's also never struck me and knows the difference).

I'm definitely NOT a fan of the term 'alpha'. The very person who brought into the world of animal behavior and training went back after years more research and took it all back and even apologized, because so many people use it on various species of animals. I'm just appalled, because these are the very tactics that have been used on animals(dogs and others) that I've had to rehabilitate and teach that humans AREN'T going to hurt or scare them. We ARE NOT the mama rabbit and sure as heck, a rabbit will know that difference. Yes, a dominant/submissive relationship works in ALL relationships and to deny that would be naive. But we don't HAVE to use aversive techniques in order to gain that respect either.

I'm not by any means saying to back down and let the bunny get away with it - that would be ridiculous and teach the rabbit that it gets what it wants. But I'm saying that a more positive approach could potentially work as well depending on the rabbit.

If I were to use this tactic on Callie, my newest rescue, she would completely shut down and be terrified of me entering her cage. Instead, I've offered her treats when I go into the cage, and she no longer charges people when their hands go in the cage.
 
Wow. Lol. I think you are looking into this too deep. I have never "grabbed my rabbit and pinned him/her down". Larrys statement said to pin like another rabbit would do. Again, not insinuating any forceful or negative behavior.
I like, support and use the term alpha. I find it very relevant. We will agree to disagree :)
 
How is pinning not forceful though? That's a contradictory. "Pin your rabbit" or whatever other animal does not lead people to being gentle. In fact, most people take it the WRONG way entirely and go as far as to force their animal, even if the animal is harmed whether physically or mentally, in he process. The animal is bound not to like it - in fact, if someone were to pin me, I'd bite them too, and dang rights I would. To say an animal likes to be pinned and that it's not forced is not necessarily true. Which is my point.

I will agree to disagree. I respect that you have your opinion and I have mine and this thread is not the place to debate. I apologize if I have come off offensive in any of my posts, as that has not been my intention and I do still fully believe you are a fantastic bunny mom. :)
 
Rescuemom wrote:
How is pinning not forceful though? That's a contradictory. "Pin your rabbit" or whatever other animal does not lead people to being gentle.
I apologize if I have come off offensive in any of my posts. :)

Please don't tell me I can't "pin" without being gentle and that I'm contradictory. I have never, and I guarantee you, never EVER treated my buns with anything but gentleness.

Thanks for your apology as you did come off offensive. No matter though. Your posts have given me a very clear picture of your viewpoint. Thanks.
 
Getting back to the original topic, no one seems to have mentioned the "shaking his boxes" game you're playing. If I'm understanding you correctly you're encouraging him to get the boxes, right? If he's starting to show aggression by getting your hand instead of the boxes, I'd stop playing the game. (Like when people play with their dogs or cats to chase their hands under a blanket and the pet learns to chase their hands and applies that elsewhere).

A neuter will likely help with cage aggression but there are definitely other things you can do now. I would recommend investing in a pair of leather gloves and wearing those whenever your hands are in the cage. That way even if he bites you, it won't hurt. Then, whenever he does bite you, hold your ground and let out a high pitched squeal. It's similar to the noise a rabbit would make to tell another rabbit that it's in pain and it will both let him know he's hurting you and probably also startle him into stopping.
 
Well him and my other lionhead are going to be desexed soon like within two months. And he got a bigger area to have now and his aggression is gone. I think i figured out the problem. Turns out my niece was feeding him cereal (luckily it's all natural and made of corn) and he was mad he wasnt getting any. Lol but now he's back to his pellets, hay, and green grass and he's happy :)
 
Glad you have found the answer to his aggression.

Recuemom: do you know what "alpha" means? It means the boss. All animal species have an alpha leader that the others follow. Rabbits have an alpha leader, dogs, cats, even fish. When you have animals, you have to be the alpha, otherwise you will be walked all over by the animals. I am the alpha bun with my rabbits, I am the alpha cat with my cats. I also have fish.

I accidently hit Pudden and he boxed and grunted at me. I went to pet him to say that I was sorry right after I accidently hit him and he boxed and grunted at me. I pinned his head down and told him "no". I also apologized to him for hitting him and that I didn't mean to. Rabbits need to know who is boss (alpha). Right now Pudden is learning to trust me. He was abused and neglected before I got him.
 
Yes, I do know what the term means, and I do know what it is in reference to. However, having worked, trained and rehabilitated dogs for many years, I also know the damage that that simple term has wreaked upon countless species of animals. "Your pet is challenging you because he leans on you." No. My pet is asking me for more of my massage. Seriously. Pets are NOT pre-disposed to challenge us every which way. Also, as I already pointed out, I am not denying that there are leaderly and follower roles in every relationship or, as some like to call it, dominant and submissive. However, the term alpha is technically, by many accounts, incorrect in the animal kingdom and MOST animal hierarchies are very akin to that of a family household - mom, dad, and the kids(kids being the followers). I never said the animal had to get away with it. But people DO NOT need to pin their animals to train them, by any means. Nobody will change my mind on this. I've been researching and rehabilitating animals all my life, and while I may be newer to owning rabbits in the way they are owned today, I am certainly not new to training and its terms. Trust me, an animal can respect you without you having to pin it to gain that. After having had to rehabilitate several animals after having had these techniques of 'pinning', or 'alpha rolling' done to them, nobody can change my mind on that aspect, and I respectfully agree to disagree with the majority of you.
 
I pin to gain dominance over my rabbits. I will also agree to disagree with you on this issue. Can you give links to what you have researched, please?
 
I disagree with 'pinning' rabbit's too. I think you're just as likely to be mimicking something grabbing a rabbit for a snack as any behaviour a mom does towards kits... and your rabbit is unlikely to be relating to you in a mum-kit relationship anyway (no matter how much you may feel like you're your buns 'mom'. I've never seen an adult rabbit pin another rabbit to express displeasure - ignore, nip, nudge, dig at, chase, lunge, growl, and box but not pin.

Personally I think you need to look at why a rabbit is behaving in that way and deal with the root cause. It's likely to be hormones and/or learnt behaviour or just natural behaviour that doesn't fit the environment.

It's easy to accidentally teach a rabbit to do something that isn't desirable. E.g. your bun gets excited so you speed up dinner time, maybe you even think it's cute at first and offer treats, then they get more excited and a little aggressive so you throw the food in faster and so on until you've taught your rabbit the more hyper and pushy they are the faster they get fed.

Tam
 
Agreed, Tam. I sent Sweetie the links to articles and references for books. But yeah... Pinning a PREY animal seems like an overall bad idea to me entirely.
 

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