My bunny has a mystery illness - even the vets can't help!!

[Aliena]

I haven't been on here in quite some time but could really use your expertise right now if you don't mind.

I have a rabbit who isn't well but I can't figure out what is exactly wrong or how to treat it (neither can the vet). He is a mini lop, was neutered about six months ago, and will be three years old in Feb. His illness first began in December 07 when he suddenly appeared lethargic with no desire to eat, drink or move. I rushed him to the vet who said he didn't look good. She gave him fluids each day for about three days and also gave him metaclopromide as he had gone it to GI stasis. He made a full recovery (or so I thought) but this has since occurred about 3 times since then.

This particular rabbit has always had a tendency to produce lots of mushy poos and doesn't eat as much hay as my other rabbits. These mushy poos have significantly decreased since I changed him on to a different brand of pellets with less protein and more fibre. He has been on them for about nine months and seems better for it. In the last three months I have also made sure that he gets fresh greens each day. Usually dock, puha, plantain ordandelion and sometimes supermarket vegetables such as mesclun, celery tops, brocolli, carrotsand spinach. He enjoys his veges and now only does a mushy poo once or twice a week.

The trouble is that he (Kuta) is still not 100%. He is constantly 'depressed'. He doesn't move around much and seems quite lethargic. His last 'episode' as the vet calls it was on the 22nd of October. This time I didn't take him to the vet (it was afterhours) and was surprised to find that in the morning he was fine and back to eating normally. I took him to the vet (same practice but a differentvet this time)a couple of days later anyway who said he looked like a very healthy rabbit - his weight was stable, teeth good, etc. He was extremely perky during his vet visit so the vet couldn't see the 'depressed' way that he normally looks.

Kuta also had a traumatic experience about six weeks ago when I went away for a night and a family member left his hutch door open when she put him out in his hutch for the day. He was missing when I got home and had obviously been attacked by a wild rabbit (who hangs around alot) as his fur was everywhere. I found him with no physical scars but his depression has been worse since the incident and he no longer likes to be outside. My family are insisting that he starts going back to living outdoors (he was inside over winter) but when I put him in his hutch for the day he just stays inside his carry cage and only comes out to use the toilet.

The vets best guess is that this is a gut related issue because he has responded when given metaclopromide (although this could just be a coincidence). The only other thing he can suggest is that next time Kuta has an episode is to get him blood tested although he seemed to think it was unlikely to reveal anything helpful.

I am now considering taking him to a homeopathic vet as I thought they might be able to offer a natural treatment to treat his emotional symptoms. I did have a brief conversation with someone I met who was an animal homeopath. She hadn't had any experience with rabbits but went away and did some reading and came back to suggest carbo vegetabilis as a possibility but wasn't sure. Has anyone used this?

Sorry to ramble so much but if anyone as any advice whatsoever I would really appreciate itas I'm running out of ideas. I hate to see my rabbit this miserable and I feel so bad for him.

 

[Maureen Las]

I have reread this post 3 times because there is so much info in here, There is more than 1 issue going on here and because of that it complicates the matter.
Several things initially come to my mind. You suggest he doesn;t eat much hay like your other rabbits but that his mushy poops have decreased a lot on a high fibre pellet. and veggies. This tells me that his mushy poops were probably from too little fiber in his diet.A few of the veggies are ones that i don't normaly feed my own rabbit so i cannot comment on each one.

What stands out to me are his initial symptoms of depression. The second thing Inotice is that he is not a hay eater. Whys doesn't he eat hay if your others do? Is it because of difficulty chewing? I have seen and dealt with this with one of my own rabbits.

My own rabbit had maloccluded incisors andI went to an animal dentist to have them removed to find that his incisors were the healthiest teeth in his mouth. His molars were deformed, twisted, infected and one of them was actually puncturing the inside of his inner cheek. The molar issues was not identified byany of the vets in my town and were identified only through radiographs of his mouth and a full examination of histeeth under anesthesia. Most vets cannot check molars any other way . A visual exam on an unanesthesized animal with x-eays just won't do it although sometimes molar spurs can be seen.
My rabbit was depressed because he was uncomfortable from his teeth. he didn't eat hay because he couldn't chew it properly.

vets in my town had told me that his molars were fine

Stasis is a symptom that often occurs because of other issues in the body. Your rabbit could have genetic anomalies internally, or could have issues with other organ systems like his liver or kidneys. I think that at this point that lab work should be done. It is interesting that your vet has not done this ..lab results tell a vet how the organ systems of an animal areworking.
Has his fecals be tested for parasites.? .Internal parasites can cause lethargy in an animal and ofentimes will show a high eosinophil count on lab results. if found they can be treated quite easily.

Last but not least is his living situation and his exposure to another wild rabbit or possibly another animal. Other wild animals carry all kinds of parasites and diseases that can be transmitted to a domestic. Are you sure he was not scratched or bitten. has he been vaccinated for myxi and VHD (actually we don't do it here in the US butI think you do it in new Zealand ? ..not sure)
I want to stress strongly that this rabbit should not be placed back outside. If his initial depression is from a physical cause his secondary one is from fear. Please do everything possible to keep this rabbit inside. He will need tender loving care to overcome the attack and if he is physically unwell will most likely do poorly outside scared to death in his little box.

my summation is that your vet seems to have attributed the symptom of 'stasis" to be the primary diagnosis whereas I believe the diagnosis has not yet been determined.

just my thoughts as I'm not a vet..

you may want to search out other vets in your area and get a second opinion also.
this is an interesting case and glad that you came to the forum as my opinion will be one of many.

I cannot comment on homeopathic tretment but I don't think that traditional mthods have been exhausted

Give your little bun some hugs and kisses from me asI feel sorry for him.

 

[DyemondRabbitry]

Aliena, I cannot promise anything from this response but I hope you find help for your little fellow- I know how frustrating it can be.

I think you normally keep him inside? For some reason I've found that a depressed, lethargic rabbit seems to cheer up when they have a run/hutch outside. It's like they just love the sunshine and fresh air- plus they can have allergies too!

Anyhow- if he doesn't like hay it could be he has a hard time chewing it but have you tried fresh grass? Most rabbits take right to it, and, as for horses or other livestock it has vitamins that no feed can replace.

I'm really not sure what to tell you- I'm so sorry for your bun.

 

[Aliena]

I am keeping him inside today as the whether is bad. He has been indoors all winter and only put out on sunny days which he used to love before the attack by the wild rabbit. Because we are now approaching summer here the people I live with want him to go back outside into his hutch permanently. He has previously had the full run of his indoor room but they want to use if for storage. I've been told he can still use it but needs to be in an indoor cage. Trouble is he doesn't like being in an indoor cage and is at his happiest (although still not that happy) when he has full run of the indoor room. I will try to keep him indoors for now (and have let him have the whole room again) but might have to cover his hutch in shade cloth or something so that he can go in it but not have visual contact with the wild rabbit.

The wild rabbit has been around since April last year. At first I took away any wild rabbits that hung around mine but new ones always replaced them so I gave up. The current wild rabbit is a pain in the butt but he is not scared of me anymore (I can even touch him) and is determined to camp out 24 hours a day beside my other bunnies. He even managed to get one of my does pregnant in April this year so now I have two wild bunny juniors (although everybody is now desexed thank goodness). I threw a stone at him the other day and then felt so terrible because it made him limp. I'm not sure what to do about him. I did think about maybe getting the wild rabbit desexed in the hopes that it would reduce his aggression towards my buck, does this sound like an insane idea? Otherwise I guess I will have to kill him. All my rabbits are vaccinated against Calicivirus and we don't have Myxi here.

The current vets practice I go to has been the best one I've found in my area. Most vets here don't know much about rabbits at all and these ones have proved most knowledgeable so far although I can see I'm going to have to search hard to find a better vet. The last vet I saw said there is no point blood testing him when he is well it would need to be when he is in the middle of one of his episodes (which I will do as soon as the next one comes along).

I did wonder about the teeth thing but he hasn't shown any difficulty eating anything else at all so I thought his teeth were fine. He does sometimes eat hay but I notice when I give my other rabbits hay they get excited and start eating straight away whereas he doesn't, he'll just a piece if its sticking out when he walks past.

Anaesthesia worries me because of the fact that he doesn't seem very strong and I don't want to stress his body anymore. I guess it would make sense to knock him out and do a whole lot of things at once though, blood, teeth, etc.

I also wondered if perhaps he could be lonely? I thought about getting him a friend but because I already have six rabbits I don't think I can afford another. I would like to bond him with my threesome of girls but one of the girls doesn't like him (the other two are fine though).

I guess the first thing I need to do is try and find a better vet which could take awhile.

Thanks for your advice so far. It helps to have other people bring in ideas that I haven't considered.

 

[MissBinky]

You know... Is it possible that he just wants to go back outside? I would suggest you start putting him outside for a few hours a day. Do it gradually. You might want to start off with just an hour at a time... I wouldn't cover the hutch honestly. Though he may have been scared, Ithink he needs to see that he is safe again. The wild rabbit cannot attack him if the cage is secure. You may want to put a lock on it to make sure it is closed well and make sure that he cannot be bitten through the mesh...

I think you should start with that and see how it goes.

I had a bunny who was never the same after his mate died and the only thing that would perk him back up was some time outside

 

[Amy27]

Has he ever had x-rays to see if anything is wrong inside? They shouldn't have to knock him out to do lab work or x-rays. I would have both of them done to see if that would provide some answers.

My rabbit would lay around and not eat for one day and then be fine the next. It thought he was just out of sorts like people get. He would only do this once ever 5 months or so for one day. Last time it lasted longer and they took an x-ray and found a stone in her bladder.

I would get some tests run. I don't think you can know for sure until you know what is going on inside him. I think it could be a lot of different things but I understand why you are concerned. I would be to. Good luck this has to be very frustrating to you. Keep us up to date.

 

[ra7751]

Sounds like something that is happening with regularity...like the life cycle of worms? If your rabbit hasn't been dewormed...I suggest it. I would take a peek at a fecal sample to check for coccidia. And I would suggest a blood panel with EC titer. A blood panel can tell you most anything you need to know..very valuable tool.

Randy

 

[Aliena]

Ok, I will have to get tests done although my vet didn't seem that keen. He wasn't even sure if they could do blood tests for rabbits in NZ because he didn't know if there were normal blood resultsavailable to compare with. He did say he'd find out for mebut I haven't heard back.

In the meantime I think Kuta will stay mostly inside as he seems much happier. I will just put him in his hutch occassionally.

Also one other thingI didn't mention about him is that he moults almost constantly. His fur just comes out in tufts all the time although he never gets any bare patches or anything, just eternally looks scruffy because the loose fur sticks out. Don't know if that's relevant or not. One vet did say it can be a sign of stress.

 

[MissBinky]

Him being scruffy-looking can indeed be a sign of something medically wrong. Is it possible that the wild rabbit might have infected yours with something? I'm sure your vet could find a way to find out more information. I hope he'll be ok

 

[dquesnel]

If he is constantly shedding, it may or may not be related to being ill. I have one rabbit that is often ill and does not shed, and another that is very healthy and sheds all the time. It could be that he is ingesting alot of shedding hair and it is causing some GI issues with him.

I will second what angieluv says though- lethargy is often a symptom of pain. He is way too young to be acting like a tired old bunny so something unusual is going on with him, physiologically. It sounds like these "episodes" of his are occuring with regularity and are most likely due to GI issues. He could have a defect somewhere in his gut.

A lack of fiber (hay) in his diet may be preventing the normal hair/food ingesta from exiting his system. If he is also dehydrated, it may be forming into impactions and these episodes may be actually situations where he is impacted and in quite a lot of discomfort until he passes some stool.

I will second what others have said- it sounds like he needs a full xray of his head to look for any teeth problems. Often you cannot really see the condition of the teeth unless you take an xray and look at the roots. Also, it sounds as if he needs a blood panel done. I am not too sure about your current vet- I would possibly consult with someone else. You can always have your current vet have a conversation with another vet outside of NZ who is knowledgeable.

And as a comment to your note about the 'wild' rabbit- the rabbit cannot be truly wild in the sense that he is not a domestic since he was able to impregnate your rabbit. Wild and domestic rabbits cannot interbreed due to differences in chromosomes. He is probably a formerly released pet looking for companionship. You said he was tame enough to touch him- I wonder if it is possible that you can trap him and give him to an animal shelter and they can potentially fix him and even adopt him out? The situation is sad. I don't think he needs rocks thrown at him or to be killed, there is probably a better way to deal with him since he is not so different from our pet bunnies.

Aliena wrote:

The wild rabbit has been around since April last year. ... He even managed to get one of my does pregnant in April this year so now I have two wild bunny juniors (although everybody is now desexed thank goodness). I threw a stone at him the other day and then felt so terrible because it made him limp. I'm not sure what to do about him. I did think about maybe getting the wild rabbit desexed in the hopes that it would reduce his aggression towards my buck, does this sound like an insane idea? Otherwise I guess I will have to kill him.

 

[Aliena]

He is definitely a wild rabbit. The wild rabbits we have in New Zealand are the same species as our domestics Oryctolagus cuniculus, they are the European rabbit. We don't have cottontails or anything like that over here, just the European one which is considered a major pest. As they are a pest no animal shelters adopt them out, they just euthanise. It is illegal to breed any of them and I don't think you're supposed to own any either. I can only touch him if he goes it my run and then can't escape so he's not exactly tame, just habituated to me.

Anyway, I will start looking around for anothervet and also get in touch with my vet again to ask about xrays and lab tests done. Thanks heaps for all your advice.

 

[Becca]

I am really sorry I don't know how to help you, I just hope your bun gets better soon

 

[tonyshuman]

I think the depression may also be due to not eating hay. Many bunnies get bored without hay to chew and this can make them sad. I agree that he should be tested for parasites, but the teeth should also be checked. They do not have to knock a bunny out for a preliminary tooth check--they just use an instrument like a tiny speculum to look inside the mouth.

 

[polly]

Hi I am not the best at this area of the forum but I have scanned through the posts and was wondering if you had tried a probiotic. I had a rabbit who did not have a happy gut and we gave him Bio Lapis it worked a treat and he is eating much better now. I also sometimes give dried grass. i have found its a good way to get them eating hay etc or maybe a herbal hay would give him an incentive.

I do think if I were you I would get another vets opinion on the teeth. one of mine had to be sedated to look properly and was found tohave really bad molar spurs though they were growing different from how they usually would so its worth looking into

 

[ra7751]

Hi again,

I would deworm this rabbit regardless of what the fecal shows....they are notoriously inaccurate due to the life cycle of the worms. Roundworms are most often seen but pinworms might be there and we have had a rabbit with hookworms. Treat for these regardless. The target of the fecal is to learn for coccidia.

There is no reason any vet can't interpret a CBC....or any other lab with access to the internet. There is the "VIN" that they can easily refer to. And if all else fails, I would be happy to provide hematology and serum values....but the should be able to easily find them.

A little shot of B Comp might help him as far as energy....it's a bit like a stimulant....I use it often in wildlife.

Since there seem to be some doubt as to the skills of the vet...this might be a case of eliminating possibilites rather than directly identifying them. A proper worming protocol and the elimination of coccidia removes those parts of the puzzle.

Randy

 

[Aliena]

Thanks for all your advice.

RE the worming, the last time I wormed him was in February so I will do it again now. The vet sold me ivermectin so that I can do it myself, I will just have to weigh all my bunnies and get some more needled syringes.

I did give him a probiotic once about a year or two ago but it seemed to make no difference. I just bought acidophilus from the health shop (who laughed at me when I said it was for a rabbit) but are there other probiotics? Also when I give him fresh grass he doesn't seem that keen but the other day I left it with him even after it had wilted and he actually ate it then so I'm thinking the idea of dried grass might be a good idea,I will give that a go. I haven't heard of herbal hay, not sure if we have that here.

One other thing that might be relevant. When he was about seven months old he did get coccidiosis (even though his pellets at the time had a coccidiostat in them) so him and all my rabbits at the time were treated. I do remember on that occassion I had to request a fecal checkas it wasn't suggested but I've changed vets since then and thought my new one was heapsbetter.

I will do the fecal samples, blood tests and teeth checks as soon as I can gather the money for them. I have exams at the moment but in a few weeks will be on holiday and can earn some more money to pay for all the tests.

On a positive note, I put Kuta out in his hutch today and he hopped straight out of his carry cage and spent the day sleeping in the sunshine and ate well. He seemed much happier although I have no idea why.

I really appreciate all the advice you have given, I was beginning to think I'd exhausted all my options but I obviously just need to push my vet more and ask for tests done regardless of what he says.

Thanks!

 

[Aliena]

I just googled bio lapis and it sounds awesome. I found a UK website that has that and loads of other vitamins/supplements that sound like they would really help Kuta. Only trouble is we don't have them here!! I will have to see if there is some way of shipping them to NZ.

 

[Maureen Las]

the probiotic that is supposedly the one that benefits the GI tract of a bun is lactobacillus casei..so any probiotic that you use should have that organism in it.
I know Randy posted this long ago.
it sounds like you have a plan for him so that's good.

 

[ra7751]

Umm...Ivermectin would not be my first choice for intestinal parasites. I would talk to your vet about using Fenbendazole (Panacur). For routine worming, normal dosing protocols apply. And I would really do a fecal to look for coccidia. That is a little tougher to manage but if not treated, it can have wide ranging effects. Deworming medications are ineffective against coccidia (for the most part anyway).

As far as the probiotic....find the eqine community. Probiotics are used quite a bit in horses....the digestive system of a horse and a rabbit are quite similar. The wormer I mentioned is also used in horses (in the US I think it's sold under the brand name of Safeguard). You can use Lactobacillis Acidophilus (non-dairy form) if necessary. It's not quite as good as of the more targeted probiotics (I use Bene-Bac). The goal is to slightly acidify the gut and that provides a stable and favorable environment for the beneficial bacteria to grow. Some people may suggest using yogurt....bad idea..do not give rabbits yogurt (more of that outdated and inaccurate treatment of the past "dark ages").

Randy

 

[Aliena]

My vet has suggested yoghurt before (for another rabbit) but fortunately I found an awesome article about why not to give rabbits yoghurt and I showed it to her so she gave up trying to convince me.

I will take a trip down to the rural supplies shop tomorrow and ask the lady there about horse products as she is quite knowledgeable. I am also going to write down all the products you have suggested and make another consultation appointment with my vet to discuss them and organise the blood tests, etc.

I have only ever heard of using ivermectin for deworming rabbits as thats what the vets use as well as all the breeders in New Zealand. But, I will attempt to investigate alternatives with the vet also (wish me luck).

Obviously New Zealand is so far behind in rabbit treatments its not funny. It does drive me nuts and I find it difficult to question the vets and give them alternative information as obviously they are a lot more qualified than I and I don't want to sound like I know more thanthey do (whenI definitely don't) I just wish they would maybe do some more research (although I guess they have better things to do). I have recently been advised that there is a vet in my city that specialises in exotics (incl. rabbits) which sounded quite promising however I met a fellow rabbit owner the other day who said she had used them and found them to benot much helpso now I'm not sure whether to give them a try or just persistwith my own vet.

This is sooo frustrating!

I will see if I can make a vet appointment for Friday and then go from there.