My Baby Bert

[Maureen Las]

Sub q fluids will hydrate the entire bodyof the rabbit including the GI tract.

Ihope that Randy sees this and responds...

many rabbit die and the reason given is 'stasis"
unless there was a necropsy done there would be no way to know if the rabbit died from an overgrowth of clostridium in the GI tract ( last stages of stasis ) or possibly from the meds given to treat it, strangulation of the bowel from a blockage or some other unknown ??.
Most people probably do not have necropsies done on their rabbits although some doand probably most people do not know why their rabbits die.


here is a good article on stasis although several treatments here are controversial( in my book)

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html


here are all our library articles on stasis but it is not all the most current

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28622&forum_id=10


I own rabbits and work at a shelter butI am self taught re. rabbits and am not a vet tech althoughI am a retired human RN

 

[Torchster]

Well angieluv, as a retired RN, you certainly know more about medical stuff than I do, there is no doubt about that. And since you work at a shelter, you are probably exposed to more rabbits on a daily basis, than I have seen in my whole life!!

My concern is for my bunny, whom I love very much. Perhaps that love blinds me to some extent. I want my bunny to be happy and healthy! I am sure that both you and Randy want the same thing for yours.

My only concern comes from what may be my own logic - which may be twisted by a lack of knowledge. But here is my thinking, which may not be worth a plug nickel. Any therapy must include an NSAID or something like it for pain relief. I think that we agree on that. We have to treat pain. As I have a read, a bunny in pain might just give up.

The only two drugs I see for gut motility are off label uses, and this is all to common for rabbits, I wish there was more research done. I think that you and Randy are probably advocated a protocol which involves a better diet (I did completely screw this one up, NO doubt about that), exercise, and some other things...but without the gut motility drugs. The only difference between the protocols would be the drugs. My most basic question is simply what I see is that is hydration enough, that seems to be what you are pushing. I didn't see anything in the literature that I saw that seemed to point to any theraputic effect of sub-q fluids on gut motility and it doesn't seem to me that it would be absorbed back into the GI tract. That is the most basic question. Sub-q has such a dramatic effect on a rabbit, that how can one tell about any effect on the GI tract?

But why the strong reaction to gut motility drugs? Yes, they could cause a rabbit with a blockage to move a blockage to a place that could rupture a part of the GI tract. But done in concert with x-rays, that danger could be mitigated.

What do I need to do to get my rabbits GI tract, back on track? Will hydration, hydration and more hydration, with a better diet (far less pellets) do the trick, or does more need to be done.

 

[Maureen Las]

I cannot answer your questions re the gut motility drugs because I have rarely used them ( many years ago) and I have far less experience with their negative effects.

I'll leave that to Randy.........



I do have experience with a rabbit who just underwent dental surgery and had a huge ulcer on his gum but not on his tongue (which is going to be an issue in re, to pain. )
The dentist told me that Beau would be feeling a lot better with the decaying teeth removed as they caused the huge ulcer on the gum ; the source of the inflammation was removed.
Beau was sent home on an antibiotic and metacam but not gut motility meds. Since he eats only soft food anyway he began to eat his regular soft slurry by himself the very night of the dental procedure.

he began to poop some the following morning and it took a few days for the normal volume of poop to return but it did.

Now there is a difference between Bert and Beau because the soft slurry is Beau's normal diet.

Beau needed to be given oral fluids ( although sub q fluids are a replacement for oral fluids so that could have been done instead. )

Bert is probably going to be having difficulty eating normal food for awhile after surgery. he may need Critical care (which is a replacement food that is mixed with water) and he may need to be syringe fed.


Whether or not we analyze the gut motility drugs at this point is a moot. point

When you give the metacam the rabbit must be well hydrated in order to prevent kidney damage from the drug. The nightfolllowing Beau's dental I gave him extra fluids asI feared giving him meloxicam when he had barely eaten or drank the entire day of the procedure.


The source of Bert's problem has most likely been resolved by the dental procedure. You are going to be dealing with a post surgical bun but not a rabbit that has teeth shredding his tongue.
You will need to keep him hydrated anyway because you are giving metacam. so why don't you talk to the Dr. about the gut motility issue and either take the meds home ( just in case ) and evaluate what you want to doif bert is not pooping in about 24 hrs -48 hrs

if your rabbit is pooping there is no reason toeven consider giving the gut motility drugs
Hydration should also be a important part of the post surgical recovery procedure not just a part of stasis treatment

You may want to learn to do sub q's at home which oftentimes is easier than forcing liquid in
Iwould also talk seriously to the vet about the potential pain that Bert will be experienceing making sure that you have a drug to cover it. I am sure that he will be in less pain than he was when he went in last week.

 

[tonyshuman]

:nicethread:toast: to you for doing your homework and understanding that there are many points of view here.

A real problem that we run into a lot is bad vets. I would trust my vet's opinion because I know she is on top of her game--stays up to date with new info, treats small animals differently than dogs and cats, etc. Many people can't find good vets like that, and it can be really easy to give gut motility drugs in the wrong situation, so we don't want a bunny's life to be compromised by improper use of these drugs. I do think they have their place in rabbits--but it's different than their use in cats and dogs, and a less up-to-date vet might not know when the situation was right to give them, and 9 out of 10 times, it would probably not be the right situation and the rabbit could die. That's why we often say, "don't let your vet give them gut motility drugs!"

 

[Torchster]

Well, it is all a moot point at the moment. Bert has responded well to the treatments so far...and my baby is HOME!!!!!!!!!

They said that his fecal production was off the chart - so they had discontinued the gut motility drugs before I even picked him up. To monitor his fecal production they had separated my buns (makes sense) but kept them as close together as possible. This morning when they put them back together, Bert got pretty frisky with Petunia (which I see as a good sign). They seem to be fine now, the car ride home quieted them down a lot.

They gave me one dose of the metacam (NSAID) stuff for tonight, but they think he is responding very well to the treatment. He is eating and drinking well on his own. We decided to stick with the oral antibiotic for 7 days, to be sure.

Although they have their own room, I decided to put them back in their cage for tonight.

My current treatment program for Bert is going to be the antibiotic, as instructed. Plus to make sure that he is getting the hydration needed, I'm going to soak their morning veggies for 10-15 minutes in water give extra hydration. I'm going to cut pellets to less than 1/4 cup per day. I'm also going to give him some critical care formula I have. He is eating hay, so I am going to use the critical care as more of a supplement, as long as he continues to improve.

 

[Maureen Las]

WOW very good news :highfive:

I am very happy to hear this; at least you are prepared for the worst ..if something should happen down the road...

:hug:

Maureen