Mucoid Enteritis

[polly]

We have succesfully treated cocci a few times now. and tbh I always keep things on hand because the beverens are very prone to it.

It seems to spread quite easily so when we are treating we isolate the rabbit asap. I have treated with syringe feeding pellet smush with crit care and nutrical mixed in also fresh green veg soaked in water ( I had been told to take all pellets etc away and only feed hay but dont find that works) clean out every night to ensure clean cage. and we use Septrin which is a paediatric antibiotic alongside. I have only ever lost 1 rabbit from it and she went down hill very quickly while we were away over night.

They drop the weight off very quickly and I have found the easiest way is to get them to eat whatever they will which is usually veg over pellets or hay. It may not be the way people are told to treat but its worked for me

the instability can be due to the rabbit getting weak quickly also they tend to be more lethargic but I am not a vet or anything so a vet trip could still be the answer. ( Sorry I havent read all the posts as its getting late and I have work tomorrow)

If we have a rabbit that takes it we do then treat the whole lot with an anticoccidiostat just to be on safe side I have also been told that rabits who survive it can hold a natural immunity but that is not agreed on by everyone!

 

[murph72]

I do have some liquid B vitamin that I'm going to add to her mixture I'm feeding her. She's still trying to be active. She's alert and wants attention, as usual. She just is losing her ability to move around at her own will. She doesn't have an area that she could have jumped off of in the pen and she is rather calm in nature. She's not even disturbed by the loud lawnmower or anything that seems to stress other animals...she just gets more curious with these kinds of situations. If it was a result of play in the pen, perhaps it was something her "sisters" did to her? Sometimes they get silly in there, so it might be possible.

My plan for tonight (since our emergency vet is just for dogs and cats...yeah, really, isn't that sad?) is to redo the pen so that it is all covered. I'm sure I'll be cleaning her up in the morning, but at least she will have access to any cecals and I'll know exactly what she has excreted. She is still eating and pooping, which is a positive sign. I will also add some veggies in there with her to entice her. I'm going to also see if she'll eat some Cheerios as she usually loves them...which will tell me how much of this is gut-related. Tomorrow I'd like to get her in for an x-ray and to take along a fecal sample to the one vet who will actually at least do as I ask (which is far better than all the others that won't listen and have no clue, but won't admit it).

If there's any other suggestions, please let me know. Her spirits seem to be high, so hopefully she can get over this. I've only had her a few weeks but I've become really attached. She is a really great bunny and I'd hate to lose her.

Dyan

 

[tonyshuman]

It sounds like you have a good plan, considering what you have available to you. I realize more and more every day how lucky I am to have good vets around me in this city. I think Polly's advice of giving her anything she'll eat is good. I hope she gets through the night ok and still seems alert.

If you are concerned about gas in the belly, sometimes a dose or two of simethicone (baby form is good because it is a liqid) can help. I give 1mL/hr for 3hrs in a row. This is only good if you think there may be gas or bloat.

 

[murph72]

Claire, I think you really nailed the diagnosis after spending more time with Liah tonight. I think you get the gold star for diagnosis.

I tried to give her some more of the Benebac, Critical Care, Pedialyte mixture and she wasn't having any of it. I had my husband cut strip of thick cardboard for the bottom of the pen. Unfortunately, it had its pros and cons. Pro: she liked sitting on it and it captured her poo so I could look at it. Con: She hated it to move on. It made her feet slide out from under her and ticked her off. She tried to pick it up and move it, but he had it wedged in there pretty good. Her answer was to try to eat it. Proof she's still spunky! :biggrin2: I compromised and took all but one section out from under her. She sits on it, but she spends her time moving about the pen mainly in the other wired areas. I cleaned out under her cage on the tray so I'd know if she had statis problems or any signs of cecals that were wasted.

She is eating and going to the bathroom like a champ. While on her cardboard she was leaving me little presents that looked absolutely normal. She's also eating like a champ. She probably wanted to prove to me she didn't need to be force fed because the first thing she did was put her head in her dish and eat pellets...followed by all her Cheerios, hay, and oatmeal. It makes me think that those systems are not the problem at all.

With the vitamin B, do you give that as an injection or orally? I've always given it orally, but I didn't know if it needed to be an injection near the spinal column to be more useful? Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I never had a spinal issue before.

My husband thinks the problem may have happened early this morning. He walked past the bunny pens this morning on his way to his woodshop and heard a rukus in the pen that Liah shares with the two AFL babies. He said it upset my lionhead that was next to them too and she was running around. He couldn't figure out what would have spooked them, but he said he didn't see anything around. My guess is the AFLs may have spooked as Liah is almost spook-proof and maybe their actions injured her. They are now in the pen next to her so she can see them and smell them but they can't further injure her.

Any idea how long it might take to see any improvement if there will be one? I didn't want to get my hopes up too much for what I'd find tomorrow, but I'm hoping it will now get better rather than progressively worse.....a girl can hope.

On a bit of good news, my Holland Clover had three babies tonight that are a day early. She had two that were not completely formed as well (which I've never seen with her before) and three is a VERY small litter for her, but hey, it's three new babies that I was excited to see arrive. I think she sensed I was bummed and decided to hurry up the delivery for me. LOL Ok, maybe not.

 

[murph72]

Just an update: Liah is doing about the same as yesterday. When put on a surface thatis easy for her to get traction, she hops with both of her legs together. She's not too good on turns though and sometimes loses her balance. Her systems seem to be working properly, which is a relief. I read that with paralysis if the systems stop working it's pretty much hopeless because she has too much damage in the spine and would have to be euthanized.

Now to the part that will anger you and show you why I get so frustrated with our so called rabbit-savvy vets: I called this morning as soon as they opened. My usual vet is away until August. The next guy down in experience doesn't even want to see Liah. He said that it sounds exactly like a spinal injury and that there's nothing he can do for her. He said the experience of driving her to the vet visit would just cause stress and might exacerbate the problem (that part I did agree with since he wouldn't be helping her out anyway). So, I guess we're left with home remedies. I'm giving her B vitamins orally and whatever she wishes to eat and drink.

Question: Am I supposed to be confining her so that she doesn't move around much? She seems to want to move around her pen and if I put her out in the playpen she's even more mobile but she has better mobility on the ground because she seems to be able to grip there better. Any thoughts?

 

[Saudade]

Perhaps you could call the closest exotic vet? I know in Aus they will do housecalls if it is needed. You'll probably have to pay a ridiculous amount of money...

Or perhaps have an over the phone consulation where they a trained professional can get you to do everything they need.

I would definitely restrict movement at the moment. Check for swelling towards the hindlegs for swelling and if you can find it.

Pineapple will assist with removing any swelling and can aid with digestion.

 

[murph72]

Sorry, that is my "exotic vet." We don't have anyone within any distance you'd be willing to drive. Now, if I owned a helicopter we'd have some possibilities. As it is, we're on our own most of the time.

 

[Saudade]

Woops, i made an edit before you saw it, i'll just repost it here.

Or perhaps have an over the phone consulation where they a trained professional can get you to do everything they need.

I would definitely restrict movement at the moment. Check for swelling towards the hindlegs for swelling and if you can find it.

Pineapple will assist with removing any swelling and can aid with digestion

 

[murph72]

Thanks for the advice.

I'm going to keep her in her cage today then to restrict her movement. She really tries to motor when you get her out and put her on the ground.

I'm still giving her the Vitamin B orally that Claire suggested. Boy, does that stuff stain clothes when it gets on them. She is taking it and I can't imagine it would hurt her in any way.

I've heard of the pineapple juice for the gut, though my bunnies that had gut problems never seemed to like it, but I never heard it for swelling. Hmm...I might have to try that. Would just a peice of pineapple work? I think it would be more likely she'd try that than to drink the juice without me forcing it on her. I don't want to stress her out more than I have to.

Thanks again for your help. It's tough doing it on my own without professional assistance but I'd be lost if I couldn't find the wealth of information on forums and on the net that exist.

 

[Saudade]

Well, pineapple contains a compound called Bromelain, Bromelain blocks the production of kinins which are the compounds that produce inflammation cause by surgery or traumatic experiences.
One of the other members of the forum can advise on dosage.

 

[murph72]

I gave her some pineapple juice with a peice of pineapple sitting in it. She was unimpressed. I did force her to take some and then she decided she liked it. When I put her back in her cage she went over and chewed on the pineapple peice....so at least I won't have to force it on her.

 

[Maureen Las]

I have only used pineapple juice for stasis and not for inflammation. it apparently has someanti inflammatory properties in people butI don't think this is good choice here . there is too much sugar in pineapple juice for a bun with enteritis.

Iwould stick to pedialyte
Also you do not need to continually give vitamin B orally ; I wouldn't over do it

What exactly are you giving orally?
i have given it as an IM injection to stimulate appetite but only 1 injection

 

[tonyshuman]

Sorry I didn't get back to you last night. The B vitamins are typically given in an injection, but I think it's an intramuscular injection which is very hard to do correctly without training. Oral is probably best.

I haven't heard of pineapple for inflammation, but the reasons Dave said sound legit, and if she likes it and will eat it, I think it's good for her now. However, the bromelain is broken down very quickly after the fruit is squeezed, so you have to get it from a fresh pineapple, not a can or jar.

I would be so terribly upset at that vet! At the very least he could do an x-ray, I mean, it's not like she needs to be sedated for the x-ray, since I assume she will lay still for a few minutes. That way you could get an idea of what you're dealing with.

Another thing you can do for her is give ibuprofen or aspirin. I think ibuprofen would be better, as it can bring down swelling and it doesn't make the blood less able to clot like aspirin can. I would worry about blood clotting if she's bruised which I assume she is. Maybe for a few days more--I wouldn't go more than 3 days as it can cause stomach ulcers--give her some ibuprofen. Here's a dosage calculator: http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

I do think restricting her movement will help. Some rabbits can regain hind leg movement after a spinal injury--anti-inflammatory drugs and B vitamins seem to help. She may not regain much movement, depending on the severity of the injury. The fact that she has some movement is good for her outlook. When the vet gets back, it would be good to do an x-ray. Another thing that can cause hind leg movement issues is arthritis, which would most likely be genetic for her age (cuz she's so young). The vet would be able to look for that on an x-ray.

 

[tonyshuman]

B vitamins can help rebuild when there is nerve damage, if I remember correctly. An IM injection would be best, but oral is ok. They will stimulate the appetite too--they're what makes Nutri-Cal an appetite stimulant. It's better to give just B vitamins than Nutri-Cal because Nutri-Cal is a lot of greasy petroleum gunk.

 

[murph72]

The B vitamins that I have are a B Complex liquid that the vet said could be used as an injection or orally. I got the container when I had my EC bun...not sure what the B vitamins were supposed to do, probably help her appetite, but I gave her so many drugs it got blurry after awhile. If I knew what I was doing I'd give it as an injection, but I've only given subcutaneous injections before and never muscular ones. I know they should go in the thigh muscle on a rabbit, but I've never attempted it before. If you think this would be a better application of the B vitamins I'm game to try it. I have the B vitamins and I have needles (no, not a drug addict, they really are in my bunny medical supply stash).

I will have my husband stop for a pineapple on his way home from work. I was giving her the canned stuff that is in chunks from Dole. That's all I had in the house. She probably does like the sugar as it is sweet. The real stuff might be a let down for her.

The breeder she came from suggested checking her legs to make sure the joints weren't out of their socket, but I don't feel anything like that. She said she had that happen once before and it presented similar to this. Liah seems to have issues with both legs, but one more than the other. She holds them together when she hops and has problems with turns, but in both directions.

The vets around here are very frustrating. The one that is away on vacation at least seem to care about bunnies and wants to learn more. The others seem to think bunnies are disposable and not worth the time. At least he admitted he wouldn't do anything with her. If I would have gone there to have him tell me that I may have strangled him.

 

[Maureen Las]

Don't try it IM unless a vet or tech teaches you... in person

 

[murph72]

Update: It's either wishful thinking, or Liah is looking better today. She is using her back legs to stand up and put her front legs on the wire like she usually does to get attention. She still hops with both of them together and the one side looks a bit weaker. She seems to be regaining some strength though. I put her down just to assess the situation this morning and she got away on me with some speed and with less wobbling than the previous two days. Hopefully this progression continues.

 

[tonyshuman]

That's good. I hope it was just a bruise of the spine that is healing with time. Keep on healing, Liah!

 

[murph72]

More steps towards normalcy: I was feeding the nightly snack of Cheerios and had already given Liah's to her. I heard someone behind me ripping around their pen. I expected it to be Liah's neighbor Anoop, because that's his style, but, yes, you guessed it...it was Liah! She was running around her pen at top speed and kicking up her feet. So much for keeping her confined to allow for healing time. She's not liking the idea of no movement.

Although she still holds her two legs together and the left looks to be the weaker one, she is looking pretty good. Even when she gets tired, I really am not seeing the dragging I did on the day the accident occurred. She may always have that weaker leg, but she definitely isn't looking like her disability is going to interfere in her quality of life.

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh that's great! I hope this means she will recover to a point that allows her good mobility and a normal life.