More Head Tilt Questions...

[Jenk]

I'm calling the vet Monday morning but would like some advice regarding whichtest(s) seem most appropriate, considering the symptoms....

I think that I've reason to ask (more) head-tilt-related questions because (God help me) I think Zoe's having symptoms. Oddly, it's not a constant issue (i.e., her head hasn't tilted to the side and continued to progressively fall toward her shoulder). But, at different times of the day, I'll find her sitting with her head cocked oddly, when, normally, she'd be looking straight ahead. But then she'll straighten it out at times and seem fine. Something seems off, for lack of a better word.

I don't noticealame hind foot at this time, norrapid eye movement; Ialso wouldn't say that she shakes her head excessively.

I'm scared of vet bills climbing higherover this....My husband may want to strangle me;we were taken to the cleaners by several vets over the course of a year. We've spent too much money on various tests for our rabbits and cat and can'tfeasibly chaster after every test, only to have each one turn up a "negative" response.

I'm so upset, fearing that this could be e. cuniculi but hoping that it'sear-related.

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[TinysMom]

I'm going to PM Pet_Bunny and JadeIcing to post on this thread since they have both experienced bunnies w/ head tilt. I can't think of anyone else who has treated a bunny with this - although I'm sure we have more members.

Head tilt is one of those things that you don't really test for...because head tilt is a symptom of something else going on (vs. an illness in and of itself). It can be caused by many things - most often it seems like its caused by an inner ear infection. In this case - antibiotics frequently bring things under control. I think in the case of Ringo - it is caused by something else because he had sneezes and stuff associated with it. I don't remember how Pebbles came down with it - but it seemed to go away fairly easily - I don't remember Pebbles rolling uncontrollably like some of mine have.

In spite of Barbi Brown's website and advice - head tilt is not usually caused by ecunniculi. At one time her treatment was the only one "out there" - before vets were learning more about this. So if you're thinking of her website and stuff - think again....because much of what she's said has been proven wrong. (I used to swear by her advice but now - after following different treatment methods - I agree that she is wrong about head tilt much of the time and that it is an infection of some sort).

I've had a number of bunnies that tilt their head to look at things....and I really don't find it that uncommon. The fact that she changes her head back to another position on her own - says to me that I doubt there is really any problem.

I've found that when a head tilt bunny changes position - it is almost like they're drunk...they're very uncoordinated and their movements are frequently jerky.

If you do take her to the vet - stress to him the need to check the ear that is on the "down" side...and have him look in there for mites or an infection.

I've had several bunnies here get head tilt (with the size of my herd its not been overly outrageous). For a while we thought there was a virus or something going on - it took a while to alleviate it. Now my only tilt bunnies tend to be those who have dehydrated - or those who have had mites and wound up with an ear infection we couldn't see.

Ziggy had head tilt this spring...after about 5 or 6 treatments of his antibiotic - he went back to normal and has been that way since. He was young though...and he never got to the point where he rolled really bad.

Hyacinth - who is fighting it now - is much older (around 5 I think) and she's having a harder time. She rolls a lot and she's lost a lot of weight. I haven't yet seen improvements and we've been treating her for 2 weeks.

Anyway - I guess I type all this to say you really can't do "tests" for head tilt...but you can look at their ears and stuff to see if there is an infection going on.

 

[Jenk]

I'm replying to your response and sending you a PM, as well.

TinysMom wrote:

I'm going to PM Pet_Bunny and JadeIcing to post on this thread since they have both experienced bunnies w/ head tilt. I can't think of anyone else who has treated a bunny with this - although I'm sure we have more members.

Thank you for contacting them.

Head tilt is one of those things that you don't really test for...because head tilt is a symptom of something else going on (vs. an illness in and of itself). It can be caused by many things - most often it seems like its caused by an inner ear infection.

I've read that the titre test can be pointless in certain regards. (It is when it comes to testing for Coronavirus in cats, anyway.) Still, if there's no odd smell or secretions from the ear, how would a vet perform a test to determine the best antibiotic to use?

In spite of Barbi Brown's website and advice - head tilt is not usually caused by ecunniculi. At one time her treatment was the only one "out there" - before vets were learning more about this. So if you're thinking of her website and stuff - think again....because much of what she's said has been proven wrong.

I'm unsure if I've read her article but may have. But it's good to keep in mind that head tilt is often caused by a treatable ear infection.

I've had a number of bunnies that tilt their head to look at things....and I really don't find it that uncommon. The fact that she changes her head back to another position on her own - says to me that I doubt there is really any problem.

It's odd in the sense that if I enter the room, her head tilts to the right and slightly downward, rather than upward to look at me. I've only noticed her head moving that way this past week; never before now. And I keep a close eye on my girls.

So if a bunny is having head tilt related to an ear infection, then the head tends to remain facing a downward angle at all times?

I've found that when a head tilt bunny changes position - it is almost like they're drunk...they're very uncoordinated and their movements are frequently jerky.

I wouldn't say that her movements are like that of a drunk, but she doesn't seem to be as active as usual. It's almost like she'sa bit tentative all of a sudden. I'm going to be with her and Emma all evening; I'll keep tabs on her movements (or lack there of).

If you do take her to the vet - stress to him the need to check the ear that is on the "down" side...and have him look in there for mites or an infection.

Quite right. Her downside, as I've mentioned, seems to be to the right. Rather than make an appointment Monday morning, I may still play things by ear a bit (or just call the vet for her thoughts).

Now my only tilt bunnies tend to be those who have dehydrated - or those who have had mites and wound up with an ear infection we couldn't see.

When you say that they've dehydrated, do you mean that they refused water for a period of time? Or that bunners who don't drink a lot of water on their own seem prone to head tilt?

Also a question aboutear mites: Are they something that a bun could carry for a long while and then to which suddenly have a reaction? I've had Zoe for 13 months now and haven't noticed anything unusual until now.

Hyacinth - who is fighting it now - is much older (around 5 I think) and she's having a harder time. She rolls a lot and she's lost a lot of weight. I haven't yet seen improvements and we've been treating her for 2 weeks.

ray:

 

[Pet_Bunny]

TinysMom wrote:

I'm going to PM Pet_Bunny and JadeIcing to post on this thread since they have both experienced bunnies w/ head tilt. I don't remember how Pebbles came down with it - but it seemed to go away fairly easily - I don't remember Pebbles rolling uncontrollably like some of mine have.

Pebbles early conditions of Head tilt started on a Saturday when she seemed uncommonly quiet, and refused her food Saturday night. Her head started to drift left to the eleven o'clock position, but she would straighten it once in awhile, and then it would drift left again. It was slight, but it was evident.

On Sunday, her food was untouched and water in her bowl was still full, so I had to prompt her by holding out food and wet vegetables soaked in water for her to eat. She did eat some Oats and flaxseed. Therewas no ear flicking, no loss of balance or dizziness, and she never rolled over. She just sat there with her head tilted.Her poops have shrunkenand aresmall anddried out.

I took Pebbles to the Vet at the first available opening on Monday morning, and we determined to use the same antibiotic that we had for Pebbles from her last episode of sneezing/not feeling well/head tilt. Because it was in the early stages, the antibiotic worked, and she was able to recover fairly fast.

Stan

 

[Jenk]

Pet_Bunny wrote:

Pebbles early conditions of Head tilt started on a Saturday when she seemed uncommonly quiet, and refused her food Saturday night. Her head started to drift left to the eleven o'clock position, but she would straighten it once in awhile, and then it would drift left again. It was slight, but it was evident.

I took Pebbles to the Vet at the first available opening on Monday morning, and we determined to use the same antibiotic that we had for Pebbles from her last episode of sneezing/not feeling well/head tilt. Because it was in the early stages, the antibiotic worked, and she was able to recover fairly fast.

Was Pebbles' first head-tilt diagnosis confirmed by an ear culture? Or was it something else besides an ear infection?

Zoe also seems uncommonly quiet and has been retreating to her cage at times when she normally wouldn't. It's just, as I've said, odd.

So far, she's eating. But her head does seem to "drift" whenever I catch it happening. It's like it drifts toward me at a downward angle, rather than it being evident that she's movingitwith completeassuredness. It's also slight, but (to me) evident.

Do you recall which antibiotic was used for Pebbles' head tilt?(I assume that the vet won't prescribe anything without requiring some form of pricey test first; but at least I could throw out a possible treatment before/aftersaidtest.)

 

[TinysMom]

Jenk wrote:

When you say that they've dehydrated, do you mean that they refused water for a period of time? Or that bunners who don't drink a lot of water on their own seem prone to head tilt?

Also a question aboutear mites: Are they something that a bun could carry for a long while and then to which suddenly have a reaction? I've had Zoe for 13 months now and haven't noticed anything unusual until now.

Our bunnies have water bottles and sometimes the balls in the tube can jam or something....so if they don't drink their normal amount in a day or two - we try juggling the bottle to make sure it works.

I've had a couple of bunnies where it didn't work right - once we fixed the bottle- they were less wobbly (but they never tilted per se). Then I've had some that had head tilt that couldn't handle the water bottle well and so if they got dehydrated - the tilt became more noticeable.

I've also had some that tilt with the weather change - usually they've had head tilt before and when the weather changes - it is a bit more pronounced for a few days.

My vet's opinion with my first head tilt bunny was "better to put it out of its misery"...so I've not had tests, etc. done.

Ali would know more about what cultures were done for Ringo....in Pebble's case it doesn't sound like it was from an ear infection though since he mentions her not feeling well before.

I've used Pen G (bicillin) for my rabbits - I think Ali has used Zithromax and I'm pretty sure others have used Baytril.

Honestly - if you're concerned - I'd take her in to a vet. If she has no discharge - I don't know why they would do a culture (but what do I know about it?) - I would think that their first course of action would be to put her on some sort of antibiotics to clear up any infection that is present.

Once again - I want to clarify this for others who are reading this.

Just because I have treated my bunnies w/ Pen G (bicillin) on my own - that does not mean I'm saying, "Don't go see a vet". I only treated them on my own because my vet was not up on the times and how to treat head tilt and believed in putting the rabbits down.

Also - a head tilt rabbit CAN live a good life. Puck lived for over a year after he got tilt...and when he got put in the grass, etc. - he ran around and had a blast.

But head tilt is something that is frequently a symptom of something else going on in the body. So it doesn't hurt to have a vet check it out!

 

[Jenk]

TinysMom wrote:

Honestly - if you're concerned - I'd take her in to a vet. If she has no discharge - I don't know why they would do a culture (but what do I know about it?) - I would think that their first course of action would be to put her on some sort of antibiotics to clear up any infection that is present.

Mybiggest problem is knowing what constitutes the need for a vet visit. I've made 34 (or 35?) trips to one vet's clinic in a year's time. His inability (or unwillingness) to tell me what issues didn't necessitate a visitconfused me and made me mistrustful of my own judgment. I'm trying to find balance/common senseagain.

I'll keep an eye on Zoe for now. As long as her head isn't permanently tilted, her limbs are working fine, and her appetite/thirst are normal, I'll hold off on running her to the vet;I would kick myself if I took her in only to be told that no culture can be done, orhave another test performed that yields a "negative" result.

Just because I have treated my bunnies w/ Pen G (bicillin) on my own - that does not mean I'm saying, "Don't go see a vet". I only treated them on my own because my vet was not up on the times and how to treat head tilt and believed in putting the rabbits down.

I would do the same, if in that situation. But I haven't access to Pen-G, and I've several vets within 40 min. of my home who wouldn't suggest putting down a rabbit in response to a case of head tilt. Thank goodness for that.

...Head tilt is something that is frequently a symptom of something else going on in the body. So it doesn't hurt to have a vet check it out!

The problem is, I fear going through test after test after test, spending hundreds (or more) dollars without uncovering a thing. (It's possible to do; it happened with my cat. We've finally given up on putting him through tests, letting Fate do what she will, as long as he's active, hungry/thirsty and lacking pain.)

 

[Pet_Bunny]

Jenk wrote:

Was Pebbles' first head-tilt diagnosis confirmed by an ear culture? Or was it something else besides an ear infection?

Do you recall which antibiotic was used for Pebbles' head tilt?

I know it could be a difficult thing to determine what the correct medicine fora particular strain. I have gone through several, and used one until it became ineffective and then moved on to another.

Dec 19, 2006. Sneezing, upper respiratoryinfection, caused by a dormantpasturellavirus thatwas triggered by stressor a change inweather. Treatment...Apo-sulfatrim.Doctor said totry this because itworks 95% of the time,before resorting to a cultureand sensitivity labtest.

January 2007? Mid ear infection, Pasteurella related.Pebbles was shaking her head, flicking her ears. Treatment... Apo-Slufatrimagain.

Aug 14, 2007. Sneezing. Treatment... Baytril (recommended by a different Doctor). Baytril did not work.

Aug 21, 2007. Nasal discharge. Treatment... Chlor Palm (Chloramphenicol Palmitate Oral Suspension). Thisantibotic was usedto Sept 21... causing another switch of drugs.

Sept 21, 2007. Continued sneezing and mucus in nose. Culture test done and the antibiotic Doxycyline wasdetermined from the test. Was successful.

June 30, 2008. Head tilting. Decided to use Doxycycline again and it worked.


If you are worried and go with something aggresive. ra7751 (Randy) has experience with Zithromax and has recommended it.

 

[Maureen Las]

I've been gone most of the day but just read this . Stan and Peg have hit the mark on most everything on head tilt.

I , like Peg , do not have rabbit saavy vets in my area,. I am presentlyy treating an english lop with head tilt with bicillins injections. This rabbit has had ear cultures done and hasbeen unsuccessfully treated with months of ciprofloxicin. This rabbits has been determined to have an ear infection evident by the bacteria in the culturesThis rabbit has responded very well to bicillin injections but if it was possible would probably do better with treatments of a combo of meds like chlorophenical and bicillin or zithromax and bicillin. Peg and I have been heavily influenced byRandy (a brilliant wild -life rehabber)who believes that most head tilt cases are from ear infections who have not been treated with strong enough meds or who have not been treated with medsappropriate to the results ofear cultures that havebeen done.

Head tilt was once thought to be a primary result of e-cuniuli infection and was treated with pancaur or other meds for this protozoal infection rather than for ear infecions.
If I was you Jenk, I would have the vet focus primarily on you rabbits'ears...and the culture of them..... then.. based on that cultureI would ask your vet to place your \rabbit on a strong antibiotic like bicillin and /or chlorophenical and or zithromax for a lenghty period of noless than 6 weeks.

This is baied on a protocol that has been repeated to us numerous times by another infirmary mod, Randy, who has not been able to vist the forum lately due to times issues

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

If I was you Jenk, I would have the vet focus primarily on you rabbits'ears...and the culture of them..... then.. based on that cultureI would ask your vet to place your rabbit on a strong antibiotic like bicillin and /or chlorophenical and or zithromax for a lenghty period of noless than 6 weeks.

I will keep checking her ears;so far, I've seen no sign of pus/secretions. I'd kick myself if I brought her in for an ear culture (an automatic $55) only to be told that there's nothing to swab for a culture.

Domost bunnies with head tilt issues caused by ear infections usually have visible ear secretions?

 

[Maureen Las]

No.. many are just bacteria that show up under a microscope after a q tip has been used to swab deep with in the ear canal.

 

[Maureen Las]

jenk

just wanted to add that if you are unsure ifher head istilted then wait a few days because if she has it you will know it and won't have to guess

 

[JadeIcing]

One thing I have never encountered and read about is sometimes tilt or no tilt. Atleast not before treatment.

angieluv wrote:

Peg and I have been heavily influenced byRandy (a brilliant wild -life rehabber)who believes that most head tilt cases are from ear infections who have not been treated with strong enough meds or who have not been treated with medsappropriate to the results ofear cultures that havebeen done.

Ok Ringo started with sneezing from day one(july).Than when I moved in in October he started with discharge. I started really looking into bunnies in December and he had his first vet appt on Jan. A series of wrong medications and lack of knowledge were his worst enemy.

One thing that came up with Teresa's tilt was teeth issues.

Some threads...

Went to the emergency vet last night (need advice) <--Teresa's Head-Tilt

Rolling Bunny(With Pictures and Video) (NEW SETUP!)

Help? (update)

Hay Types

Ringo Journals. I have not typed up the 08 one yet.

2006

(1-16) He went in sneezing and discharge. Tribirissen Oral (o.52xdaily).

(2/20) still sneezing they give him Chloromycetin palmitate (1ml2xdaily) for 2weeks.

(4/2)Emergency visit. Head-tilt, Rolling, Pus in one ear, Sneezing. Meds in office, 50cc LRS SQ, 0.2ml dex dm. Take home Baytril (0.4ml), liquid tears, criticale care.

(4/8)she (the vet) gives me for Ringo Neobacimyx Opth Oint for his eye.

(4/14) Improved.

(5/6) Improved

(5/15) head-tilt worsening. In office meds first longicillin shot and some metacam. Take home 2months of shots. First Nolv Otic to clean ears than Baytril otic (1drop2xdaily each ear). Metacam 0.025ml 1xdaily.(5/23)(me call in) Ear sloshy. head still tilted. Bad rolling episode

(6/29) Ears clearing up. Still sneezing.

(7/3) Meds are now permanate. Cultures done.



Up to the and of the year he took baytril 2xdaily, Penicillian-Benzathine 1/2cc every other day. His ears I was started cleaning every other day 1x daily. I put the baytril drops in everyday. The baytril and shots I stuck to what they said. The rest of the meds I do depending how he is. No stressing him at all!

Vet said for him it is Quality of life over Quantity.

Ringo

(1/16) 3.75#

(4/2) 1.9kg convert becomes 4.2#

(7/3) 3.43#



-----------------

2007

Ringo Vet Visit 1-20-07
Dr. Sim checked Ringo over and said he was doing very good. Still fighting back little by little. Ringo...she looks him over and goes he is a faker. She saw the same thing I did, he leans and acts sick for sympathy. That he is maintaining and fighting back little by little.

Ringo was put on Zithromax for two weeks. Weight stayed the same.

2-6-07
Dr. Sim prescribes another two weeks of Zithromax.

Ringo is doing alot better. He is not sneezing and nose clear and dry! Which is great because has always been icky. Always had discharge. Only thing is he seems allittle more off balance. I also think he finally hit puberty. I swear now he is wanting to hump everything since he finally feels better.

4-3-07
Well after the Zithromax Ringo's nose, cleared up and his sneezing stopped. His balance on the other hand is very off. He still jumps up an runs around but if tries to stand up or stand and lean against something he falls over and rolls.

Ringo put on Bonine 1/2 tablet and Metacam if he seemed to need it.

6-11-07
Ringo Sneezing again, slight disharge.
6-12-07
Talk to Dr. Sim Ringo on baytril for two weeks.
6-14-07
Wet nose but his paws are messy. Starting Ringo on echinacea capsules. Open them and dump the inside in with his other meds.
6-15-07
Ringo was given a bath to clean him up a bit.

-------------------
Day 1- Saturday Night

Crush pill put into little apple sauce mix. Ringo falls for it.

Day 2- Sunday Night

Ringo eats some have to feed him the rest.

Day 3- Monday Night

Repeat day 2

Day 4- Tuesday

Try it mixed with natural apple. Ringo drinks but not with out a fight.

Day 5- Wensday

Ok new strategy... Put a few carrots and one peice of peach into mixer slicer thingy. Crush pill mix in. Ringo digs in. All gone.

Day 6- Thursday

Repeat Day 5

Cross your fingers this keeps working.

Ringo started tearing into the meds when we used plain diced carrots.

Second time on Zithromax....
He is taking it with Pumpkin just fine.
------------------

10-9-07

Ringo lost slight weight. Looks very bad loosing some fur under his mouth. Went to vet. Healthy just slightly overgrown teeth. Try new hay types.

11-10-07

All new hay has been working for Ringo. He is looking healthy.


After you read through that ask me any questions. I will help as much as possible.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

No.. many are just bacteria that show up under a microscope after a q tip has been used to swab deep with in the ear canal.

Ahhh...That is good info. to know. And now that I have this info....

...if you are unsure ifher head istilted then wait a few days because if she has it you will know it and won't have to guess.

Sohead tilt--whether caused by mites, an ear (bacterial) infection or e. cuniculi--will appear as a permanent thing, which is my clue to take action.

This morning, I peeked in on Zoe and found her head situated at that slightly off/odd downward angle. (It was that way prior to me peeking at her, I could tell.) But then she righted her head position and went about her business of eating hay. I still find it odd, but I've no conclusive anything to go on unless/until her head remains tilted.

 

[Jenk]

JadeIcing,

You're mega-thorough (as is Pet_Bunny). I can appreciate thoroughness, especially when it comes to bunnies' medical care! I, too, have kept detailed notes about my girls' various vet visits. In fact, I keep a daily log to track the medications/ supplements/probiotics that they take, as well as any additional water(or supplements, e.g., Pedialyte) that I must syringe-feed them.

At this time, Zoe's not having sneezing issues or any nasal discharge.Emma, however, has had a slightly moist nose for several weeks now. The vetalso noticed it, but since thedischarge isn't thick, discolored, or running down to Emma's mouth, I'm just to keep an eye on it. Itseemed to coincide with the start of theFall season, so that could be all it is. (Please me know if there'sanything elsethat a slightly moist nose could indicate, though. )

I realize that there's another thread regarding Ringo's current hurdles, but may I ask how he is doing? Better, I certainly hope. Either way, that boy is soooo loved (by everyone here), it's overwhelming and brings tears to my eyes as I type this. Gawd, I'm such a sentimental mush. lol

 

[JadeIcing]

Jenk wrote:

JadeIcing,

You're mega-thorough (as is Pet_Bunny). I can appreciate thoroughness, especially when it comes to bunnies' medical care! I, too, have kept detailed notes about my girls' various vet visits. In fact, I keep a daily log to track the medications/ supplements/probiotics that they take, as well as any additional water (or supplements, e.g., Pedialyte) that I must syringe-feed them.

I try to be. I also know all that by memory. The written down part is more for others in case something happened to me.

At this time, Zoe's not having sneezing issues or any nasal discharge.Emma, however, has had a slightly moist nose for several weeks now. The vetalso noticed it, but since thedischarge isn't thick, discolored, or running down to Emma's mouth, I'm just to keep an eye on it. Itseemed to coincide with the start of theFall season, so that could be all it is. (Please me know if there'sanything elsethat a slightly moist nose could indicate, though. )

I would just keep an eye on it.

I realize that there's another thread regarding Ringo's current hurdles, but may I ask how he is doing? Better, I certainly hope. Either way, that boy is soooo loved (by everyone here), it's overwhelming and brings tears to my eyes as I type this. Gawd, I'm such a sentimental mush. lol

He is ok. Had a few rolling episodes today but for the most part seems just fine.

 

[Maureen Las]

In a more positive note

I have a friend who woke up to find her rabbit tilted and rolling. The vet put the rabbit on baytril and ear drops for something like 2 weeks. I deep down felt terrible about it because i didn't think the meds were strong enough

The rabbit totally recovered and it didn't return

.
The English lop with head tilt has never rolled, has a slight tilt , has great quality of life and seems to need maintenance meds

Head tilt is terrible but sometimes it is totally treatable and sometimes it is lingering and awful..depends a lot on the bun and also the expertise of the vet...and sometimes it is??? no one knows

 

[JadeIcing]

angieluv wrote:

Head tilt is terrible but sometimes it is totally treatable and sometimes it is lingering and awful..depends a lot on the bun and also the expertise of the vet...and sometimes it is??? no one knows

Exactly! Ringo is a whole nother can of worms. Teresa is just fine.