Molar Spurs (Pipp)

[krsbunny]

Hi Maureen,

I apologize for not answering this sooner. I just now had time to really read this thread and see that my opinion was asked for. Unfortunately ... I honestly don't have any more definite answers than anyone else on the microscopic poop question. Since the smallest adult rabbit I've ever had weighed in at just under 5 lbs ... I'm also not qualified to speak about the poops of dwarf breeds.

I do know that for some of my smaller rabbits there is some "normal" variation in poop size. Some of them frequently have a few smaller poops mixed in with a whole pile of normal poop ... and I try to find that fine balance between being watchful and being obsessed (thus being stressed and making the matter worse). I'm a firm believer in what was said above about stress being a primary trigger for GI problems ... The closer I am to a particular rabbit, the more they will pick up on (and in some cases try to take onto themselves) MY stresses. So the most important thing I can do for my rabbits' health is try to relax and "go with the flow" (even when I don't think I like where it is heading). The bunnies I have worried least about over the years... have ended up being the healthiest. I don't think that is coincidence.

I am just beginning tograsp the idea that "periodic" GI problems may be related to shedding cycles ... and to think that diet may need to be adjusted (what that adjustment needs to be may be different for each rabbit) to help them get through the heavy sheds. Looking back, even HRH King Murray's chronic GI problemscould have been shed-related as I always said, "He sheds 4 times a year and each shed lasts 4 months." (do the math)

All of my guys seem to be really good hay eaters -- might be because they have convinced me that they MUST have APD Timothy Gold (or an equivalently "gourmet" hay for variety). If someone is in a heavy shed and I don't see them eating as much hay as I'd like, I often try "hand feeding" a few strands to them. I've also found that sometimes they DO want a different "gourmet hay" for a few days. One thing I recommend to people is that even if they have a source for good, inexpensive, local hay, they may want to invest in a small amount of "gourmet" hay (you may need to try several to determine what your crew likes best) to give as an occasional"treat" ... and more often during heavy sheds

Depending on the bunny, I will sometimes give some sub-q fluids if I'm not real happy about what I'm seeing in the litterbox. I've also found that most of my bunnies will drink more from a crock than a bottle. Making that switch has been enough with many of my guys.

My impression, too, is that the caution stated for Metacam (that it should not be given to a dehydrated bunny) actually applies to most (if not all) pain meds. Certainly it is true for Banamine ... and I've also heard Buprenex works better if the bunny is well-hydrated. It just makes sense that ensuring adequate hydration -- whether you syringe pineapple juice and/or pedialyte, give sub-q fluids, or both -- is a simple (but easy to forget when you're stressed) part of both early intervention and supportive care.

Kathy

 

[Pipp]

krsbunny wrote:

... I'm a firm believer in what was said above about stress being a primary trigger for GI problems ... The closer I am to a particular rabbit, the more they will pick up on (and in some cases try to take onto themselves) MY stresses. So the most important thing I can do for my rabbits' health is try to relax and "go with the flow" (even when I don't think I like where it is heading). The bunnies I have worried least about over the years... have ended up being the healthiest. I don't think that is coincidence.

I really agree with this as well. And also the fact that we're watching our favourites like proverbial hawks and we see and react to things that may also be happening to the 'backroom' crew, but we're just missing it. Instead of a six or eight hour gas attack under constant surveillance and treatment, they have happened and are over by the time we see the backroom guys.


krsbunny wrote:

I am just beginning tograsp the idea that "periodic" GI problems may be related to shedding cycles ... and to think that diet may need to be adjusted (what that adjustment needs to be may be different for each rabbit) to help them get through the heavy sheds. ..

All of my guys seem to be really good hay eaters -- might be because they have convinced me that they MUST have APD Timothy Gold (or an equivalently "gourmet" hay for variety). If someone is in a heavy shed and I don't see them eating as much hay as I'd like, I often try "hand feeding" a few strands to them. I've also found that sometimes they DO want a different "gourmet hay" for a few days. One thing I recommend to people is that even if they have a source for good, inexpensive, local hay, they may want to invest in a small amount of "gourmet" hay (you may need to try several to determine what your crew likes best) to give as an occasional"treat" ... and more often during heavy sheds

Depending on the bunny, I will sometimes give some sub-q fluids if I'm not real happy about what I'm seeing in the litterbox. I've also found that most of my bunnies will drink more from a crock than a bottle. Making that switch has been enough with many of my guys.

No doubt in my mind that molts cause depression, bouts of gas and GI slowdowns, that's usually my first question when someone's bunny flunks a treat test or whatever.

More so than gourmet hays (we have a multi-bale, multi-variety household and the odd bag of gourmet hays do get gobbled up, a lot of times just adding any other variety will inspire an initial hay fest, although it can wear off pretty quick.

However, I've always thought that hydration is such a key to digestion I've been more inclined to give everybunny pumpkin during molts. I'm a fan of wet fibre. I think the veggies really help as well.

Veggies of course are the saving grace for Pipp, who just will not eat hay or grass. :disgust: And I've never seen her drink water. But the difference in her spunk when she's drinking the juice flavored water from a syringe during her molts or dental issues is amazing.

Everybody else, though, is contantly eating hay. I think they'd need more hours in the day to chow down any more.



krsbunny wrote:

My impression, too, is that the caution stated for Metacam (that it should not be given to a dehydrated bunny) actually applies to most (if not all) pain meds. Certainly it is true for Banamine ... and I've also heard Buprenex works better if the bunny is well-hydrated. It just makes sense that ensuring adequate hydration -- whether you syringe pineapple juice and/or pedialyte, give sub-q fluids, or both -- is a simple (but easy to forget when you're stressed) part of both early intervention and supportive care.

Agreed again. And I'll add that some of my previous Metacam comments were misconstrued. I've never suggested giving twice as much Metacam as prescribed, just giving it twice as often. The prescription usually says x amount every 24 hours, but I find it's best to cut the dose in half and administer it every 12 hours and my vet agrees. And only to well-hydrated rabbits along with a little food.


james waller wrote:

quite involved letter,question,about chewing,:.ever try fruit tree branches/apple pear /plum/etc. this chew toy/teething may help teeth over a period of time/healthy too,but she is going to have to have the correct diet or continued problems/70% fiber.ie.orchard/timothy grass,and pellets one oz.per #body weight per day,..is every thing she eating soft,??.this is not good,,-just kinda figure what they do out in the wild-they do somewhat live better/diet wise,exercise..not talking about predators/diseases/etc.:coolness:..sincerely james waller

All of my bunnies get organic fruit tree branches -- apple and pear -- and they love them. Except Pipp. :rollseyes: She far prefers gyprock and door jams and I don't think they even take enough chewing to help anything.

One ouce of pellets per pound to me still sounds like way too much. Pipp is 2.6 lbs and gets whatever I can get with my thumb and forefingers when I reach in the bag. Everybody else gets an eighth to a quarter cup once a day and they range from five to 10 pounds.

The carrot stems, kale, etc, are pretty chewy. I also give her just a few pumpkin or sunflower seeds (preferably the flatter ones so she'll be inclined to chew moreso than crack), and/or whole oats.

Good point re: exercise. This is so important for digestion and weight comtrol.

james waller wrote:

bo b appears to be a rex,yes.,if so,does she also suffer from sore hocks,..i have 3 easter rex,s-they are slightly over weight(good eaters) two get pooy bum,s /sore hocks and the third does not!!?.go figure,..but yes you are right,when i feed fresh picked dandylions,clovers,grasses-daily-count on poopy bum,s-with at least two of them,.in the diet,.go figure,.sincerely james waller

I have two foster maxi-mini-rexes, one with sore hocks. Both are very overweight (which is why they're here), the biggest and heaviest doesn't have sore hocks, the smaller one does.

It's nervewracking to try, but I think continuing to feed the veggies in spite of mild soft stools may get their systems used to it and correct itself.

Some bunnies will go out in the yard to eat spring grass and sometimes I think this can lead to the fatal form of bloat, the kind that usually comes with bad diarrhea -- also something about eating wet grass.

It makes me think that the sudden introduction of veggies may have a similar basis when they cause very mild problems.

And sort of off-topic, I'll add that I share my yard with raccoons, and that makes it more difficult to pick grass and the like because of how deadly the raccoon parasite can be. It's hard to wash off and it lives a looong time in the grass. It's also deadly for rabbits.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[krsbunny]

Thanks for the reminder about raccoons. I had forgotten that as one of my main concerns about grass here. Dr. Allan suggested growing wheat grass and I think that might be a better idea than picking outdoor grass... duh!

Kathy

 

[Pipp]

A small saving grace is that the raccoons are creatures of habit much like the bunnies, so they have very specific 'toilet' areas if you can find them.

I started a thread on raccoon parasites and latrine clean-up here, seeing as it's off-topic for Pipp's thread:

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=44427&forum_id=16&jump_to=596392#p596392



sas :expressionless

 

[naturestee]

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents on GI stasis, molting, and food. Most of my rabbits, if they have GI issues (aside from the dwarf hotot with chronic issues), either had them during a molt or just after moving to the new house (stress). Like Pipp, I'm a big fan of feeding canned pumpkin during molts. I started trying this after Loki had some small gas attacks while molting and now the pumpkin seems to prevent those. I don't measure what I give (I let them eat out of the container, lol!) but he probably gets 1-2 tablespoons twice a day while he's molting. It's an exciting treat for him too, he gets very excited about his pumpkin.

My thought is water + fiber is very helpful for a slowing gut. And that while "hairballs" supposedly happen more after the intestines slow/stop than before, the high amount of fur being ingested during a molt must slow down the GI tract somewhat and probably feels uncomfortable for the bun.

My guys eat so much hay that I couldn't afford to buy the fancier stuff. I do wish I could find oat hay bales around here, the one source dried up before I could get any! But I do get multiple species of grass in my hay from the farmer I buy from and my inlaws usually have some very nice bluegrass that they don't mind me taking. Also, this is sometimes frowned upon but I do let my rabbits have some of the alfalfa and clover that often comes in the bales- except for the dwarf hotot who is very sensitive to protein. But just a tiny bit of alfalfa hidden in a big pile of grass hay gets Mocha and Loki so very excited! They end up eating a bunch of grass on their way to finding the alfalfa bits. It's like a needle in a haystack, except they eat the haystack as they go.

How is Pipp doing by the way? Mocha wants to know how her twin is doing.

 

[Pet_Bunny]

Pipp wrote:

Good point re: exercise. This is so important for digestion and weight comtrol.

As I said, my two bunniespoop more when they are out in the run. More work for me because I have to sweep it up. :grumpy: I believe if they arerunning and active, it will also help maintain their system and poops.

I haven't use pumpkin for awhile, but I have some cans of pumpkinlaying around. Should I be worried if it had an expiry date on it? (2009 SE 11). :expressionless

With the new brush, I have never combed so much hair off Pebbles as before. She should be naked by now with the amount I brushed off. :brownbunny

 

[Pipp]

Now I'm wondering if the stress of the dental issues led to the molt and the small poops, or if the stress of the molt led to reduced intake and thus the spurs, or if she has/had a virus and that led to the small poops and then the molt... or what. :expressionless

But whatever, she has now stopped eating veggies altogether.

I think this is a losing battle.

Unfortunately, I just phoned the vet, Dr. Martinez, and he's out of town next week so Pipp's timing does it again. She almost always came down with these things on the Friday of a long weekend. I guess this is the best equivalent. :rollseyes

It's been tough getting the money together this time, I'm already trying to amass a small fortune to euthanize my poor kitty. The above vet will cost me way less than the clinic, so if she can hold out until he gets back, my cat would appreciate it.


sas

 

[Pet_Bunny]

Pipp wrote:

But whatever, she has now stopped eating veggies altogether.

:cry2

Come on Pipp, quit scaring your mommy.

 

[Pipp]

PS: Here's Pipp's pathetic poops on the left, and Sherry's on the right.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Oh no
Sas, you need to write another book or sell an article or something! Did you ever get your glasses?

 

[bpotter2]

Pipp, this just ended here and I am going through a similar problem right now with both Twinkles and Bon Bon. I just gave them 1 cc of simethicone and they scampered off under the sofa. I have not seen either of them pee or poop the whole of yesterday. They are eating but not as much as usual. There are only a few very small hard poops in their toilet, and I am not sure whose poop it is. Twinkles is behaving like he is aggitated but otherwise normal. Bon Bon has not been very active but every so often comes out and races to wherever Twinkles may be. I am concerned because Twinkles has been relapsing a bit with his head tilt, getting a bit shaky, again. Still on ChlorPalm and was doing really well. Bon Bon had her second dental surgery and the vet stopped because he said the tooth crumbled. She was in every other day for antibiotic injections for 5 injections and she seemed fine until a couple of days ago. Tonight I caught her and saw her eye is wet on the same side she had the crumbled tooth. Do you know a good bunny dentist? I am not sure now about this vet. Any advice would be so appreciated.
By the way, after I spoke to you last, I got an unbelievable flu that lasted for weeks. Strange, but it ended with my back going out, too.
Kathy

 

[JimD]

ray:

 

[BethM]

I hadn't seen this thread before.

I wanted to add something on the timing issue:
Nick is currently battling a mild upper respiratory infection. His medication, possibly combined with the stress of treatment and being handled, has caused a loss of appetite.

Last year, he had stasis. Didn't eat for a week, seemed fine for a week, then had a relapsed. He eventually passed a lot of fur that had been ingested. (The poops were almost completely comprised of fur that was very tightly compacted and dry.)

Last night, I noticed a few ants in the pen, and it really annoyed me. Last year there were ants in the pen, as well. I thought they were living under the old condo, which was difficult to keep clean; at the time, I tore down the old condo, vacuumed under it, and made a brand new, easy-to-keep-clean condo. The ants disappeared overnight. When I was squashing ants last night, I had a nagging feeling that the ants had been here when Nick was sick.

So I checked the online vet records, and Nick's prescriptions for stasis were on June 6th of last year.

Seems to support the timing theories presented earlier in this thread.

The date and the ants seem to be the common things in Nick's case. The weather has recently taken a turn towards warmer and more humid, so shedding has begun in earnest. Nick does not like being touched, so brushing him is a harrowing task. (His fur is super long and thick, may be part Wooly.)

All my bunnies are stubborn and finicky, don't like canned pumpkin. Although I want to try the juice in the water, I do not want to encourage the ants.

(Note: I am on a 3rd floor apartment, and I keep it clean. I have no idea where the ants are coming from or why they are here. The rabbit pen is next to the sliding door, so they are obviously coming in from there; probably after the rabbit food. Not sure, though, why they came up this far. The pen is not swarming with them, I see maybe 5 at a time.)

 

[Maureen Las]

bpotter2 wrote:

Pipp, this just ended here and I am going through a similar problem right now with both Twinkles and Bon Bon. I just gave them 1 cc of simethicone and they scampered off under the sofa. I have not seen either of them pee or poop the whole of yesterday. They are eating but not as much as usual. There are only a few very small hard poops in their toilet, and I am not sure whose poop it is. Twinkles is behaving like he is aggitated but otherwise normal. Bon Bon has not been very active but every so often comes out and races to wherever Twinkles may be. I am concerned because Twinkles has been relapsing a bit with his head tilt, getting a bit shaky, again. Still on ChlorPalm and was doing really well. Bon Bon had her second dental surgery and the vet stopped because he said the tooth crumbled. She was in every other day for antibiotic injections for 5 injections and she seemed fine until a couple of days ago. Tonight I caught her and saw her eye is wet on the same side she had the crumbled tooth. Do you know a good bunny dentist? I am not sure now about this vet. Any advice would be so appreciated.
By the way, after I spoke to you last, I got an unbelievable flu that lasted for weeks. Strange, but it ended with my back going out, too.
Kathy

if the tooth crumbled it was most like decayed. The tooth is the surface and unless the vet x-rays the roots there is no way to know whether their is an infection below the gum line. Your vet could most likely could do an x-ray of the root whether or not he can do more with the tooth.... at any rate that could give you some piece of mind if the root looks normal
because tooth roots also create problems with eyes the runny eye could be related.
is it an upper or lower ; if it is an upper on the same side I would take look at the tooth root as the issue.

 

[Maureen Las]

BethM wrote:

I hadn't seen this thread before.

I wanted to add something on the timing issue:
Nick is currently battling a mild upper respiratory infection. His medication, possibly combined with the stress of treatment and being handled, has caused a loss of appetite.

Last year, he had stasis. Didn't eat for a week, seemed fine for a week, then had a relapsed. He eventually passed a lot of fur that had been ingested. (The poops were almost completely comprised of fur that was very tightly compacted and dry.)

Last night, I noticed a few ants in the pen, and it really annoyed me. Last year there were ants in the pen, as well. I thought they were living under the old condo, which was difficult to keep clean; at the time, I tore down the old condo, vacuumed under it, and made a brand new, easy-to-keep-clean condo. The ants disappeared overnight. When I was squashing ants last night, I had a nagging feeling that the ants had been here when Nick was sick.

So I checked the online vet records, and Nick's prescriptions for stasis were on June 6th of last year.

Seems to support the timing theories presented earlier in this thread.

The date and the ants seem to be the common things in Nick's case. The weather has recently taken a turn towards warmer and more humid, so shedding has begun in earnest. Nick does not like being touched, so brushing him is a harrowing task. (His fur is super long and thick, may be part Wooly.)

All my bunnies are stubborn and finicky, don't like canned pumpkin. Although I want to try the juice in the water, I do not want to encourage the ants.

(Note: I am on a 3rd floor apartment, and I keep it clean. I have no idea where the ants are coming from or why they are here. The rabbit pen is next to the sliding door, so they are obviously coming in from there; probably after the rabbit food. Not sure, though, why they came up this far. The pen is not swarming with them, I see maybe 5 at a time.)

Beth I don't think the ants are related to the health issues ; I just think it isthat time of year.
I would, however try to take a vacuum to their area are at least every other day to get any antsout A few ants will not hurt them but a swarm would .

is there anyway to spray around the door and then fence off the area so the buns cannot get near the sprayed area? That might prevent the ants from getting in.

In one of my homes outside Chicago we also had ants just come from nowhere and would find a swarm in a strange place. very gross....

 

[BethM]

angieluv wrot

Beth I don't think the ants are related to the health issues ; I just think it isthat time of year.
I would, however try to take a vacuum to their area are at least every other day to get any antsout A few ants will not hurt them but a swarm would .

is there anyway to spray around the door and then fence off the area so the buns cannot get near the sprayed area? That might prevent the ants from getting in.

In one of my homes outside Chicago we also had ants just come from nowhere and would find a swarm in a strange place. very gross....

I agree, I think the ants are coincidental. Just odd that they are here at molting time.
Last year, I tried about all the home remedies for ants that I could find, but nothing worked. They just disappeared after I took out the old dirty condo.

There isn't really any way I can spray while the bunnies are in here. It will only be a couple weeks until we move, so hopefully I can keep the ants under control until then.


I lived in Guam for a year, and there was no keeping ants out of the house. The only thing you could do was sweep them up every day. Gross, indeed.

 

[bpotter2]

Bon Bon went in to the vets yesterday as I was concerned about her weepy eye, considering she was recently in for the dental extraction which was aborted. The vet put some kind of dye in her eyes and checked to see if it came out of her nose. It did not and he advised washing the eye area everyday as she had blocked tear ducts. He did not, however check her teeth for signs of infection, the reason I brought her in. Instead, he said Bon Bon has to come in Monday morning to resume the dental work which entails cutting open her lower right jaw from the outside of her cheek [not from inside her mouth] and removing the base of the two teeth that are fused to the jaw bone. The dental specialist will be coming in to perform the operation assisted by the vet. Still, I am worried.
Bon Bon's weight has gone from 2.2 pounds down to 1.8 although she has been eating. Her poops were well formed but very light coloured. In fact I thought they were the pellets! I watched for new poops and sure enough, they were very light coloured. They looked like small, tan, round fibrous balls. I have never seen this before. Her poops have returned to fairly normal, today. What would cause this? Anybody know? I gave her simethicone a few days back as she had stopped eating for a day and a night. I have also started her on digestives, a bottle the vet gave me. Could this be the cause?

 

[tonyshuman]

Poor girl. Did the vet also mention flushing the tear duct? I believe they can gently force water through the duct when it is clogged to get it open again.

Good luck with the operation!

 

[Maureen Las]

Wow that is really a lot of massive surgery ; she must have infection in the bone
poor bun

I would think that the light colored poops are a result of the meds and wouldn't worry about that.Please let us know how she does/

Iwould guess that if he is a dental surgeon that he knows what he is doing but this is massive surgery for a little bun losing weight .

Why don't you pm Randy with this thread and get his take on it. I am sure the surgeon is well qualified but wondering if this is too much for a bun to undergo.
We hope not ray: