Margot's sore hocks are a bloody mess. Literally.

[Alexah]

I posted some timelast week about Margot's developing sore hocks. She has had a slight case ever since coming to me, but they have gotten considerably worse since last week. Prior to coming to my home, she has not been on wire bottomed floors. And I've been putting a triple antibiotic ointment on her paws at night along with a warm compress (when she lets me) and bag balm on them in the morning. I have put a small piece of vet bed in her pen along with additional fleecy blankets. And when I just went up to let them out this evening (a little late as I've been out for the majority of the day) I noticed a couple of telltale red splotches on her pen floor. I checked her out and it was her left foot that looked the worst so I'm assuming that is where the blood came from as she checks out fine everywhere else.

Margot's still acting like nothing's wrong. I'm thinking this has probably happened before because she is just so calm about it all. I talked to my vet late last week and she said to just continue doing what I'm doing, but I think I'm going to give her a call tomorrow and maybe see if she has any other advice for me. I'm really upset about the condition of Margot's feet and I feel guilty despite doing everything I can here to treat and prevent the sore hocks. Is there something else I can do? Am I missing something obvious? I just feel terrible because she must feel terrible...

It makes me so, so angry that she was in conditions in her prior home that led up to this. I called my "friend" again (for the third time) and I'm hoping she'll take her other velveteen lops off of the wire bottomed floors, but, honestly, Ijust don't think she cares enough. I'm trying to think about what I can do there with that whole situation, but that's another story altogether and my main concern right now is Margot.

Have any of you dealt with a pretty nasty case of sore hocks before? I've seen the occasional slight case, but this is just terrible. I feel terrible, Margot feels terrible...and this whole situation is terrible. So any advice or suggestions would be appreciated -- by both me and Margot (I'm sure).

 

[GoinBackToCali]

For me, I found this method quite by accident..

I cleansed them with peroxide.. then I used the blue antiseptic lotion on them used for livestock (the blue stuff was the accidental part, I used it on Ori's "bits" and inadvertantly got it on his hocks as well) I then slathered the hocks down with triple antibiotic ointment.

Within a day, there was a drastic improvement... I used the blue lotion once more,the next day, and used the triple antibiotic ointment daily, reapplying throughout the day as needed.

I have also seen people use the new skin stuff at shows.. but I prefer not to..

Be advised.. the blue stuff does stain somethin fierce..

 

[Alexah]

I appreciate the advice...well, Margot and I both do .

Where would I be able to get the "blue stuff?" I live in the heart of a city and we're not big on livestock around here, but we do have areas near by that are all about the country and there are no short supply of feed stores. Would I find something like that at a feed store or would some place like Tractor Supply be better? Aside from those two options I know there is a large tack shop about 1.5 hours away and that may be something they have, but I don't think they carry anything aside from what's used for horses -- I could always call them though...

Oh, and does the "blue stuff" have a specific name? Or do I just call it the "blue stuff?" I know it's a stupid question, but I admit my lack of knowledge on this one.

Thanks again though. Come hell or high water I'll get out tomorrow to pick some up (or order it from somewhere if all else fails) because it is not okay for Margot to be suffering as she is (even though she doesn't seem to be in pain). But you all get my point, right?

 

[Haley]

If you think they are really bad I would take her to the vet if you can. Sore hocks can become infected pretty easily and get much worse.

Max had some bad sore hocks for a while. My vet told me not to use hydrogen peroxide on rabbits as it can be very painful and also often does more harm than good by damaging healthy tissue. He suggested I use sterile saline to clean off any wound and then use something like silvadine (or if you need something over the counter neosporin works too). This method has always worked well for me- and then once they heal you can put bag balm or diaper rash cream on them if they flare up a bit.

None of my buns are on wire floor but Basil and Max get sore hocks sometimes from being on carpet. My vet says sometimes its like carpet burn when they tear across the carpet... Also some breeds are more prone to hocks than others.

 

[Maureen Las]

It sounds like Zin has a very experienced methodof dealing with sore hocks. I have never dealt with it personally except in only the beginning stages If you are unsure if you can get the products that she described here is some additional info that may help you.


http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Surgery/Bandaging/band_foot.htm


http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11953&forum_id=10


Here are some links in the library.

I wouldn't use hydrogen peroxide to cleanse his feet as itcauses an increase intissue damage to the area and there have been reports of rabbits having extreme reactions to hydrogen peroxide. This is something that is notgenerally known , even by some veterinarians. I think that we have a link on this topic in the library .
The following are excerpts are from from "When your rabbit needs Special Care" by Lucille Moore /Kathy Smith


"If a reddened area progresses to lesions take the rabbit to the vet to determine the extent of the infection.Lesions may be cleaned with an antiseptic solution such as Dermisol, Chlorihexiderm Flush or betadine" and bandaged with a lightweight dressing such as Tegaderm .
Correct the underlying cause of the podermatitis-keep the rabbit's nails trimmed, provide a softer surface

The following creams and ointments have been recommended for ulcerative pododermatitis by veterinarians and veterinary texts

Aloe vera gel

bactoderm topical ointment
Bactoban cream
calendula gel
Neosporin (not neosporin Plus)
Oxyfresh pet gel

Silvadene creme

triple antibiotic ointment ( rabbit should not consume a lot of it)
Zymox topical creme.

Sometimes a rabbit can be prevented from licking medication off the feet by bandaging the feet. Cover the lesions with the prescribed ointments, overlay this with a lightweight dressing such as Tegaderm and hold the dressing in place with a stretchy self adhesive bandage such as power Flex or 3MTM, Vetrap. A few rabbits will immediately devote their energies to removing the bandaging but others will tolerate it. "

Recently we have had some posts on ? use of aloe vera so I would skip that product.

Most of the products that Kathy Smith talks about are veterinary products and are probably way more costly than what Zin has found to be helpful.

 

[seniorcats]

The blue lotion sounds like gentian violet, an antifungal treatment. You can probably get it at a Farmer's Exchange, Feed Store or perhaps ask your pharmacist. We used to keep around when we had horses.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentian_violet

 

[Pipp]

Are sore hocks fungal?
I always hear bag balm recommended and repeat that, but I don't really know what it is. :embarrassed:

Peroxide can be used, butonly toclean around the edges, it stings like heck and shouldn't be poured in an open wound, and I think that may also be where the tissue issue comes in, too.

Silvadine is popular, and my vet swears by Betadine for all wounds to ward off infection.

Love to hear what Pam Nock has to say about the blue stuff.



sas :?

 

[GoinBackToCali]

Here's a brand I have seen at the feed store...

http://www.horseloverz.com/Blue-Lotion-Wound-Dressing-and-Antiseptic-4oz-pr-150978.html

To be honest, I havn't had to treat but maybe 12 rabbits with sore hocks.. Ori being one of them. Good to know about the Peroxide.

You know, when we do the big shows, all the rabbit folks have peroxide in their carts.

With Rusty, he's learning about rabbits with me, and it's funny, that I know more than a vet about rabbits, but he's made a real effort to be more informed about rabbits, on my behalf.. and to help others..

If ya'll want, I can have Blake run out and take a pic of our stuff...

 

[GoinBackToCali]

Pipp wrote:

Are sore hocks fungal?
I always hear bag balm recommended and repeat that, but I don't really know what it is. :embarrassed:

Peroxide can be used, butonly toclean around the edges, it stings like heck and shouldn't be poured in an open wound, and I think that may also be where the tissue issue comes in, too.

Silvadine is popular, and my vet swears by Betadine for all wounds to ward off infection.

Love to hear what Pam Nock has to say about the blue stuff.



sas :?

Sas-

As for the blue stuff.. when I got Ori.. I was so consumed with cleaning up his bits.. I didn't even notice his sore hocks, and I was so overzealous in slathering him down, I got it on his hocks..it SEEMED to do the trick..

Yanno what.. let's see what's in the stuff.. I am sending Blake out now to get out ours.. I will take a pic and list the ingredients..

 

[GoinBackToCali]

Alright..

Blue Lotion Spray made by Anchor

Ingredients: Crystal Violet,Benzocaine, Tannic Acid, Benzyl Alchol, Glycerin and Isopropyl Alchol

(I just realized Benzocaine is a "deadner")

I did call another breeder friend of mine.. and he swears by this stuff for sore hocks.. so I guess my accident was dead on with what he does normally.

As for Bag Balm..

Ingredients:

8-HYDROXY QUINOLINE SULFATE 0.3% IN A PETROLEUM LANOLIN BASE

Here's the pic of my blue stuff, taken with my camera phone..

 

[GoinBackToCali]

I wanted to add... that for 16 fl ozs, I paid $8.75...and to be totally honest, my kids use it too..aside from the staining, I couldn't ask for a better antiseptic..

 

[BSAR]

I home Margot's sore hocks get better quick! We use non-medicated neosporin for sore hocks and it works pretty good.

 

[Maureen Las]

I have a can of bagbalm and I got it if from the farm store..it contains a lot of lanolin and is used for udders on dairy cows that get chapped plusother chapped conditions and superficial abrasions.

I used iton Beau when he was just beginning to get a sore hock..it was more like a callus and it worked really well.

 

[seniorcats]

okay i googled this phrase gentian violet sore hocks and it came up with all sorts of references to rabbit sites recommending gv for sore hocks. Obviously, I haven't read them all but will try and and take a look at a bunch.

[ame=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gentian+violet+sore+hocks]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=gentian+violet+sore+hocks[/ame]

 

[seniorcats]

I think I've seen Bag Balm at Wally Mart and other drug stores too.

 

[Alexah]

I really appreciate everyone's help here tonight :hug:.

I'm going to have to keep this short because it's after 1:30am and I'm totally wiped out, but I wanted to respond and update before heading to bed.

I just spent about an hour with Margot. I had warm compresses on her feet for about a half an hour (they weren't too hot and I didn't keep them on her steadily -- I moved them from one foot to the other and then off so she wouldn't be feeling too warm. I did it because it just really looked bad and I wanted to make sure the area was cleansed) I did use a tiny bit of peroxide at first (a very small 2 drops into warm water which I then mixed up) because if there was bacteria present I wanted it to be cleaned out. I know it has a tendency to sting, but there's nothing better in my opinion and I was as gentle as possible. She squirmed a bit, but I doubt that had anything more to do than with the fact she wanted out of my arms. I did read what Pipp wrote (thanks!) about peroxide, but I do remember my vet okaying it should one of my bunnies get a cut or scrape that looked bad and medical attention wasn't immediately available (or necessary). I then put on some triple antibiotic ointment and put her back in her pen after scrubbing it down. I also put in a huge piece of fleece fabric that I just bought for a project I'm working on. She does well with it and doesn't chew it so I'm not concerned, but I did want her to have a completely soft (and clean) surface for the night.

I wound up calling and leaving a voice mail message for my vet. I'll probably get a call back first thing in the morning -- she's excellent about that. At this point I'd prefer her to be seen. And, luckily, on my way down to the vet's there is a Tractor Supply and I'm planning on stopping in to see if I can pick up some of the "blue stuff." I think that's my best bet as far as where to get some. And then between the "blue stuff" and the vet, we should have everything cleared up in no time. I hope.

Thanks again everyone. It's most appreciated. But now I need to get to bed so I can be somewhat lucid when I talk to the vet in the morning (and for work). I'll update when I can tomorrow.

Edited to add: I just looked in on Margot and she's flopped on her new blankie. She seems okay, but it just makes me sad to know she's hurting. Hopefully she'll be able to get some good rest tonight. Yeah, and me too for that matter! G'night!

 

[Alexah]

Oh, one more thing! Bag Balm is like...I don't know...a savior or something! That stuff is freakin' amazing. I got it when I had each of my tattoos done and man it was awesome. And when my hand got sliced open last Christmas, it worked miracles. It tends to be a bit pricey, but it's worth every penny! And, I know around here, you can get it at Walmart, Target, CVS, and Walgreens. I haven't seen it anywhere else, but it doesn't mean you can't get it there. It really is an ointment of wonders!

Speaking of which, I have a nice new scratch on my arm (thanks to Miss Margot) and I think I'll plop some down on top of it now before heading to bed.

 

[Maureen Las]

I'm glad that she looked comfortable last night but I do agree that you should talk to the vet about her hocks.
Let us know.

 

[Alexah]

I really only have a second for a quick update, but here it is:

I talked to my vet this morning and I have an appointment for Margot at 4:15pm today. I'm quite relieved that she'll be seen at this point because I woke up to more blood on her fleece blanket. I used the warm compresses again this morning along with the antibiotic ointment. I called Tractor Supply and they do have the "blue stuff." I'll be picking that up prior to my appointment so my vet can see it and let me know if she thinks it would be a good thing to try -- I think I was confusing her on what it was. So hopefully by evening tonight I'll have some sort of plan in place for how to continue treating Margot's hocks.

She still seems comfortable and she's hopping around as though her hocks don't hurt.I'm having a hard time, actually, trying to keep her quiet. I know that's a good thing, but I just feel so bad for her. Just looking at her hocks hurts -- I can't imagine my feet looking and feeling like that!

I have to run out for a bit, but I'll be back later and I'll try to update then. And I'll definitely keep everyone posted about what happens this afternoon at Margot's vet appointment.

 

[Alexah]

Margot and I just got back from the vet about a half hour ago. She's resting comfortably in her pen and I'm finally sitting down -- it's been a busy day...

Before I say anything, let me just tell you all how much of a trooper my Margot is. She was perfect at the vet and I know she was feeling some pain and was scared to boot. She was just so wonderful and I couldn't stop telling her (and everyone) so all the way home. The vet was so impressed by her as well. Margot's just an amazing bunny and I hate that she's having to go through this because of poor care in her prior home.

The vet saidthat her hocks are not ulcerated yet but that that's going to be our main concern. She doesn't want them to become ulcerated or for her to develop abscesses. So that's our biggest issue right now -- healing her hocks without them getting worse before they get better. We talked about possibly putting her on a preventative antibiotic but decided against it for the moment. Her thinking was that she didn't want her on antibiotics unless necessary since medications tend to stop working once the body becomes used to them. Should we need them in the future, we want them to work. She did, however, give Margot some Metacam in the office and she prescribed some for me to bring home to give her because she's starting to not want to stand and we're worried she may stop eating/drinking because she's in pain. I hope it helps some because I can't even imagine how painful it all must be for her.

The vet said I was doing the right thing by disinfecting her cage and putting the compresses on her hocks to both soothe and cleanse them. So I'll be continuing that along with using the handy dandy "blue stuff" that was recommended by Zin (I was able to pick some up at Tractor Supply and it was seriously dirt cheap...and such a pretty shade of blue). My vet also said I could use the "new skin" but that she'd really prefer me to keep doing what I'm doing a few days to see how the hocks look before turning to that option. She doesn't feel it's the best treatment and thinks I'm better off with the regimen I described above -- and then if it's still not looking good we'll pursue other options (including "new skin").

I have another appointment for Margot on Monday of next week at 2:30pm. And, of course, if anything gets worse or changes for the worse before then I can call. But we're looking at doing what we're doing for a few days at least and hoping for the best. And then after that we're going to have to get creative as to how to prevent this from happening again. Her feet are so poorly furred that I think this will be a chronic issue. But first things first and we're on the right track.

Here's to hoping Margot's feetsies feel better soon! And a huge thanks to everyone here for your advice and support. Oh, and Margot says thanks too!