tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
The milk thistle should be fine but it's up to you.
Long-term hock abscess
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Hey Fuzz16, is that bun in the avatar picture with you Fallow? I saw him on your RO blog and he looks a lot like my girl. Saw how he had sore hocks too -- are they all better now? Carpet can definitely do that! And tile has abraded my feet and put holes in my socks, so it's pretty rough too. We'll just have to plant grass throughout our houses for our buns' feeties 
fuzz16
Well-Known Member
LOL! o how they would love to have grass everywhere...id have a goodreason to get a goat to keep it down!! that or a few more buns
and ya thats my baby boy Fallow. his is hereditary so its just something i have to try and avoid, but even my best efforts are normally not enough. his dad was notorious for sore hocks.
if i notice a spot getting sore i will put some coronas on it. its an oinment a lot of people use on baby butts for diaper rash. i used it on my staph (thin layer with vaseline on it to keep it kinda more there)and it kept things from getting to bad. i didnt think about the use of coronas for you just because it wont help infetion much and my bun never licked it much i dont know how it would affect them. but its a horse salve so you could find it at a horse feed store
and ya thats my baby boy Fallow. his is hereditary so its just something i have to try and avoid, but even my best efforts are normally not enough. his dad was notorious for sore hocks.
if i notice a spot getting sore i will put some coronas on it. its an oinment a lot of people use on baby butts for diaper rash. i used it on my staph (thin layer with vaseline on it to keep it kinda more there)and it kept things from getting to bad. i didnt think about the use of coronas for you just because it wont help infetion much and my bun never licked it much i dont know how it would affect them. but its a horse salve so you could find it at a horse feed store
Well, the infection is inside the abscess, so maybe the coronas would help on the outside. For now, I'm putting on the silver sulfadiazine. But last night a new development appeared. The vet had put some surgical glue (superglue) on a spot where some bleeding started when he did the needle aspiration for the culture. On one side of that "glue plug" the skin has now opened to a hole where the original hole was in June when the other vet cut the abscess open. Seems like it never really healed closed. Can't tell how far the hole goes down, but this is, I guess, all part of the abscess wall, and it all seems not very well formed.
I have heard about abscesses "drying up and dropping off" on long-term antibiotics (usually penG). Does anyone know what exactly happens in these cases, or what that looks like? This abscess wall seems intertwined with blood vessels and other tissue, so I can't picture how or whether it would do that.
I have heard about abscesses "drying up and dropping off" on long-term antibiotics (usually penG). Does anyone know what exactly happens in these cases, or what that looks like? This abscess wall seems intertwined with blood vessels and other tissue, so I can't picture how or whether it would do that.
Had two thoughts about the ear rash, and have looked up some info but not much on rabbits. Seems possible the rash could be due to the liver being compromised after 5 months on abx. Or maybe a yeast infection due to long-term abx. Her hot/cold swings without fever lean more towards the liver. Thoughts?
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Abscesses heal best from the inside out, meaning that if you close them up surgically, they will just continue to trap infection in there. Now, this does not include if there is exposed bone at the bottom of the abscess. Usually you shouldn't glue or stitch an abscess closed, it should be left open. In most animals, the abscess can drain and heal from the inside out with a small drainage hole. With rabbits, as you know, the pus is very thick and will not leave through a small drainage hole. I hope this makes sense.
I think when people talk about abscesses drying out and dropping off they mean that the tissue that was on top of the pus pocket becomes a scab that falls off. This is because with long-term strong antibiotics, the abscess is not opened or drained. The pus pocket is left there. The tissue under the pus pocket heals, and then the tissue on top of the pus pocket dies, dries out, and falls off.
I do expect that the liver could be damaged. You may consider a blood chemistry panel and complete blood count to check that. I am really not sure about the ear. It could be a skin infection of yeast--if you treat with miconazole (athlete's foot cream) it might help. Athlete's foot or ringworm are similar yeast infections of the skin, but they usually look crustier than you described her ears.
She is indoors, right? No large temperature fluctuations in the environment?
I think when people talk about abscesses drying out and dropping off they mean that the tissue that was on top of the pus pocket becomes a scab that falls off. This is because with long-term strong antibiotics, the abscess is not opened or drained. The pus pocket is left there. The tissue under the pus pocket heals, and then the tissue on top of the pus pocket dies, dries out, and falls off.
I do expect that the liver could be damaged. You may consider a blood chemistry panel and complete blood count to check that. I am really not sure about the ear. It could be a skin infection of yeast--if you treat with miconazole (athlete's foot cream) it might help. Athlete's foot or ringworm are similar yeast infections of the skin, but they usually look crustier than you described her ears.
She is indoors, right? No large temperature fluctuations in the environment?
Yes, she's indoors, and I am keeping the temp at a constant 72 now (was fluctuating between 70 and 74 earlier). I've read today that liver damage can impair the fluid circulation in the body and lead to itchy skin as well as heat flushes in the head and neck, both of which she has had. She's also had a brown fleck on the worse ear which has baffled the vets but now that I think about it looks like the brown spots people get with liver disease.
I will schedule a blood test, though I hate to stress her out with a vet trip again. Last time I requested a full CBC I got only a basic because the vet couldn't get enough blood. If that happens again, would a basic CBC be enough to tell liver damage?
Is the miconazole something that would not be harmful if licked off? There has been a lot of flakiness (wouldn't call it crustiness) at times, like her inner ear skin is coming off in big flakes.
I do know all about healing from the inside out with rabbits, and that's what we did the first time around, but apparently there was still a small pocket inside that could fill with pus. The second vet cut a small hole to get a culture sample -- didn't find much pus, just thick abscess wall. That hole closed over too by itself (eventually -- long story), but now seems to be reopening. The abscess has never been surgically closed -- the glue was just to seal off some bleeding during the needle aspiration a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, I think the vet trapped some surrounding hair under the glue and it caused a localized infection/inflammation. It's been red around that spot since then and that's where the tissue is now separating. It's like the glue plug (or blood vessel it's attached to?) is a little island and the surrounding abscess wall is retreating and opening up to that inner cavity again. Guess I'll just watch it and see what happens.
I will schedule a blood test, though I hate to stress her out with a vet trip again. Last time I requested a full CBC I got only a basic because the vet couldn't get enough blood. If that happens again, would a basic CBC be enough to tell liver damage?
Is the miconazole something that would not be harmful if licked off? There has been a lot of flakiness (wouldn't call it crustiness) at times, like her inner ear skin is coming off in big flakes.
I do know all about healing from the inside out with rabbits, and that's what we did the first time around, but apparently there was still a small pocket inside that could fill with pus. The second vet cut a small hole to get a culture sample -- didn't find much pus, just thick abscess wall. That hole closed over too by itself (eventually -- long story), but now seems to be reopening. The abscess has never been surgically closed -- the glue was just to seal off some bleeding during the needle aspiration a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, I think the vet trapped some surrounding hair under the glue and it caused a localized infection/inflammation. It's been red around that spot since then and that's where the tissue is now separating. It's like the glue plug (or blood vessel it's attached to?) is a little island and the surrounding abscess wall is retreating and opening up to that inner cavity again. Guess I'll just watch it and see what happens.
fuzz16
Well-Known Member
i cant bemuch help anymore. i reallyhope she pulls through just fine...hopefully the infection doesnt go into the bone...ill be praying for that among her getting better soon. good luck
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I would make sure a chemistry panel is done on the blood. A CBC, which counts the different types of cells in the blood and other components, will give you some idea of the liver function, but the chemistry panel would be more informative.
Thanks for the advice. I just checked her file and what was actually done in March was a "mammalian standard chemistry." There were 7 values given (total protein, total bilirubin, urea nitrogen, creatinine, phosphorus, glucose, calcium). Total protein was high, phosphorus a bit low, other values normal, but this was before any antibiotics or obvious infection. The ALT (SGPT) did not have a result value ("quantity not sufficient"), and the comment said "hemolysis 1+ could decrease direct bilirubin by 80%." Am I correct that the bilirubin and creatinine are the ones to watch for liver problems? And are there other values I should have checked that weren't on the standard chemistry? Thanks again.
Okay, finally got the mailed bloodwork report (the over the phone report was very skimpy). These are the out-of-range values (though with Kathy Smith's expanded ranges most are still within normal):
Low: Hemoglobin 9.7; Hematocrit 28.5; WBC 2.7, RBC 4.44, lymphocytes 1026 (38%); phosphorus 2.4
and high: alk phosphatase 58
calcium on high end of normal range at 13.4
Any thoughts?
She has now been on the tetracycline for 3-1/2 weeks. Tonyshuman -- I think you said 28 days should be the most. What was the thinking on that -- gi/liver/kidney damage potential? You said most vets don't dose high enough or long enough with tetra -- what is long enough for mrss do you think?
She seems to have stabilized on the tetra after some gi troubles, great appetite today, no lethargy. Hock skin is more pink, not inflamed any more, but size of enlargement hasn't really changed. Vet says once off tetra he wants to give her a rest off abx and see how she does. She's been on abx for 6 months now.
Low: Hemoglobin 9.7; Hematocrit 28.5; WBC 2.7, RBC 4.44, lymphocytes 1026 (38%); phosphorus 2.4
and high: alk phosphatase 58
calcium on high end of normal range at 13.4
Any thoughts?
She has now been on the tetracycline for 3-1/2 weeks. Tonyshuman -- I think you said 28 days should be the most. What was the thinking on that -- gi/liver/kidney damage potential? You said most vets don't dose high enough or long enough with tetra -- what is long enough for mrss do you think?
She seems to have stabilized on the tetra after some gi troubles, great appetite today, no lethargy. Hock skin is more pink, not inflamed any more, but size of enlargement hasn't really changed. Vet says once off tetra he wants to give her a rest off abx and see how she does. She's been on abx for 6 months now.
I don't have any experience with this type of bacteria nor the use of tetracyline
increased alkaline phosphotase could indicate liver problems and increased calcium could indicate kidney problems but I cannot tie this in with the use of the antibiotic.
Would you be able to talk with the vet about this;
I also see you posted on Etherbun
Ihope that you get a satisfactory response there although this problem is complex and not everyone is on-line due to the holiday.
increased alkaline phosphotase could indicate liver problems and increased calcium could indicate kidney problems but I cannot tie this in with the use of the antibiotic.
Would you be able to talk with the vet about this;
I also see you posted on Etherbun
Ihope that you get a satisfactory response there although this problem is complex and not everyone is on-line due to the holiday.
The vet seemed unconcerned when he phoned the results, but he is not entirely rabbit-savvy and also doesn't know her every move and mood like I do. He did say she was mildly anemic, so maybe that's the tiredness. The tetracycline is rough on the liver and kidneys from what I understand.
I have gotten a few private responses on Etherbun, including a lead to someone experienced who I hope can give me more advice. I just get nervous when a bunny isn't doing well over the holidays. I've lost a guinea pig on Thanksgiving day, and a bunny on Easter Sunday before -- the latter died horribly in my arms because the emergency clinic said they wouldn't put him to sleep without him being evaluated by a rabbit vet, and none was available :-(
I've been on Etherbun for several years -- am new to Rabbits Online but like the way things are organized here Thank goodness for groups like these where you can learn from others' experience.
I have gotten a few private responses on Etherbun, including a lead to someone experienced who I hope can give me more advice. I just get nervous when a bunny isn't doing well over the holidays. I've lost a guinea pig on Thanksgiving day, and a bunny on Easter Sunday before -- the latter died horribly in my arms because the emergency clinic said they wouldn't put him to sleep without him being evaluated by a rabbit vet, and none was available :-(
I've been on Etherbun for several years -- am new to Rabbits Online but like the way things are organized here
Thank goodness for groups like these where you can learn from others' experience.rabbit_friend wrote:
It does seem with me also that "events" tend to occur when I am least able to get help
Ihope that she is not worse today
The vet seemed unconcerned when he phoned the results, but he is not entirely rabbit-savvy and also doesn't know her every move and mood like I do. He did say she was mildly anemic, so maybe that's the tiredness. The tetracycline is rough on the liver and kidneys from what I understand.
I have gotten a few private responses on Etherbun, including a lead to someone experienced who I hope can give me more advice. I just get nervous when a bunny isn't doing well over the holidays. I've lost a guinea pig on Thanksgiving day, and a bunny on Easter Sunday before -- the latter died horribly in my arms because the emergency clinic said they wouldn't put him to sleep without him being evaluated by a rabbit vet, and none was available :-(
I've been on Etherbun for several years -- am new to Rabbits Online but like the way things are organized here
It does seem with me also that "events" tend to occur when I am least able to get help
Ihope that she is not worse today
She is looking a lot better today. Gave her a plate of parsley and endive around 1:30 a.m. and she gobbled it. Also ate quite a few pellets, which she has hardly touched in the last week or so, and drank some dilute apple juice.
This morning she ate a big part of her salad. Then was looking for her "treats" around 2 pm (benebac in mashed banana, myristol/actiflex mix in olive oil and oats). Ate that plus a big plate of parsley. Now she's napping.
I didn't give the tetracycline this morning -- she's been on it 27 days and I'm hoping that's enough. Her hock looked completely pink this morning -- not a bit of red. So there is definite improvement. Just hope I didn't stop it too soon. I'm continuing to put HealX on it.
Do you know what happens to tetracycline if it isn't refrigerated? When I first got it, I called the pharmacy and asked did it have to be refrigerated because I was surprised it wasn't on the label. They said no. Then after giving it for two weeks, when I went back for the refill, they handed it to me and said "this needs to be refrigerated." Say WHAT?! So I'm wondering if the first two weeks might have been less effective. It does seem to have done more in the last 9 days since the latest refill (refrigerated now), but maybe it's just that she's been on it more total days.
Anyway, not as worried about her today, though still wondering if I should continue the tetracycline. However, pretty much everyone I'm hearing from now even from other groups is mentioning azithromycin (I know it has praises here), so if she relapses we can try that next.
Off to check on the turkey
This morning she ate a big part of her salad. Then was looking for her "treats" around 2 pm (benebac in mashed banana, myristol/actiflex mix in olive oil and oats). Ate that plus a big plate of parsley. Now she's napping.
I didn't give the tetracycline this morning -- she's been on it 27 days and I'm hoping that's enough. Her hock looked completely pink this morning -- not a bit of red. So there is definite improvement. Just hope I didn't stop it too soon. I'm continuing to put HealX on it.
Do you know what happens to tetracycline if it isn't refrigerated? When I first got it, I called the pharmacy and asked did it have to be refrigerated because I was surprised it wasn't on the label. They said no. Then after giving it for two weeks, when I went back for the refill, they handed it to me and said "this needs to be refrigerated." Say WHAT?! So I'm wondering if the first two weeks might have been less effective. It does seem to have done more in the last 9 days since the latest refill (refrigerated now), but maybe it's just that she's been on it more total days.
Anyway, not as worried about her today, though still wondering if I should continue the tetracycline. However, pretty much everyone I'm hearing from now even from other groups is mentioning azithromycin (I know it has praises here), so if she relapses we can try that next.
Off to check on the turkey
I'm glad thatshe isbetter.
Ibelieve that tetracylcine is not commonly used at least by the long term members on this forum.
Azithromycin is a great drug if the rabbit can tolerate it; it sometimes causes a loss of appetite
Ibelieve that tetracylcine is not commonly used at least by the long term members on this forum.
Azithromycin is a great drug if the rabbit can tolerate it; it sometimes causes a loss of appetite
Well, she certainly had a loss of appetite on the tetracycline, so that won't be anything new. I've read that tetracycline almost always causes that whereas azithromycin only occasionally does, but I have no experience with either. I was a bit dubious too about the vet prescribing it after reading Francis Harcourt Brown did not recommend it being given orally. And then articles about rabbits hypersensitivity to it and some dying from enteritis even 10 days after treatment . . . let's just say I will be sure to continue the benebac, fluids and other support treatments for at least another few weeks!
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Sorry I have not been giving advice. I have been just way too busy. I think it sounds like he's doing much better, right? So you are stopping the tetracycline? It is an older medicine than azithromycin and can have GI issues, although zithro does too.
Understand about busy, believe me! Just wanted to know why you said max of 28 days on tetracycline, and how long you've kept bunnies on zithro. We've had gi issues on tetra, so are prepared (though not happy about the possibility of more). Right now I am just cleansing twice a day with Vetericyn and applying silver sulfadiazine. Five days off meds and it is looking a tad redder.
She also has a hot spot between her shoulder blades that she is scratching that I can't identify.
She also has a hot spot between her shoulder blades that she is scratching that I can't identify.
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
It was just a guess, based on a 14-day course (typical) x 2. I actually spoke to a different vet than usual last weekend and she said that bunnies have immune systems like AIDS patients, and it's not uncommon for a bunny to have to be on an antibiotic indefinitely. Now if my bunny were prescribed that, I would want to investigate other options first, especially if yours is having GI issues on tetra.
I have not had bunnies on zithro myself but have heard up to 40 days, I think. The GI issues are usually the limiting factor if it doesn't clear up the infection rapidly (within a 14 day course). With zithro it seems to be more of a reduced appetite than mussy poo, if that helps. Sometimes buns on zithro have to be force-fed Critical Care.
Not sure about the other spot but sometimes long-term antibiotics can cause fungal infections to sprout up--like thrush or yeast infections in humans.
I have not had bunnies on zithro myself but have heard up to 40 days, I think. The GI issues are usually the limiting factor if it doesn't clear up the infection rapidly (within a 14 day course). With zithro it seems to be more of a reduced appetite than mussy poo, if that helps. Sometimes buns on zithro have to be force-fed Critical Care.
Not sure about the other spot but sometimes long-term antibiotics can cause fungal infections to sprout up--like thrush or yeast infections in humans.
