Lagomorphlvr (I researched who you were but your name escapes me), thank you for a thoughtful post.
I forgot or missed your previous post(s).
lagomorphlvr wrote:
Rabbits are âair cooledâ, like an old Volkswagen. They release body head mainly through their breath. A fan to dissipate the hot air so they donât re-inhale it is just as efficient (and many will argue preferable) to air-conditioning.
Frankly, I am appalled by this dangerous misinformation. Rabbits do not release body heat mainly through their breath. They are cooled mainly by their very vascular ears, and can quickly become overheated in temperatures over 80 degrees F. I am a biologist. This information can be found in any biology 101 course, as well as many rabbit-savvy information sources.
Uh, be appalled at the vet textbooks.
This was my humorous but not detailed 'quick' explanation of and extremely complicated subject, and while this summary falls short, it is in effect correct.
Its obvious that temperature control is the key because if the building was cool, there wouldn't be a heat stress problem, but it also boils down to ventilation and humidity. In this situation, a proper fan is as good as the air conditioner, possibly better.
The oft-used information I have quoted assigns 80% of heat dissipation to respiration, eg: "
[size=Rabbits are cooled primarily by respiration, with the ears playing an important part in thermoregulation. In fact, about 80% of heat dissipation occurs through the evaporation of moisture during breathing, with the ears creating a radiator effect.][/size][size=
It's from a veterinary text and is quoted often by vets, like here:
[url]http://www.lakehowellanimalclinic.com/html/heat_stress_in_rabbits.html[/url]
][/size]
The key sign of overheating is moisture around the mouth and chin.
However, while I do quote it, I actually question the high percentage myself, but none-the-less, the respiration and nasal mucosa accounts for the larger portion.
The studies I rely on in this case are production and agriculture sources because I find that shelter situations are closer to these criteria than house rabbits. There is a lot of weight given to ventilation, and being in Florida, the humidity. Those are both major factors in determining the best sources of heat control.
Here's a specific quote:
Dept. of Agriculture:
Temperature. Temperature is the most important factor as it directly affects a number of elements. Rabbits have a constant internal (rectal) temperature so heat production and losses must vary to maintain body temperature (Table 49). They do this by modifying their feed intake level (regulating production), as described in the chapter on nutrition. They use three devices to modify heat loss: general body position, breathing rate and peripheral temperature, especially ear temperature (Table 49). If the ambient temperature is low (below 10°C) the animals curl up to minimize the total area losing heat and lower their ear temperature. If the temperature is high (above 25° to 30°C), the animals stretch out so they can lose as much heat as possible by radiation and convection, and step up their ear temperature. The ears function like a car radiator. The efficiency of the cooling system depends on the air speed around the animal. At the same time the animal pants to increase heat loss through evaporation of water (latent heat). The sweat glands are not functional in rabbits and the only controlled means of latent heat evacuation is by altering the breathing rate. Perspiration (the evacuation of water through skin) is never great because of the fur.
It also has to be noted and considered that there has to be great care taken to prevent the spread of respiratory diseases, and they also need to meed a specific set of criteria based on air flow and humidity. The two have to be regulated together.
It really gets complicated. But as a biologist, check it out and feel free to share your findings (although maybe best in another thread, LOL!).
Not sure what the alternative is here? Stuff them? Leave them in their cages? Even if a rabbit is being sent to a veterinarian for a necropsy, they need to be refrigerated or frozen. Cremation is expensive, burying them in the yard is a viable option. Necropsies are not needed if the cause of death is already known, and often inconclusive.
Itâs a problem when the dead keep piling up. I have a list of about 30 known bunny deaths from 2008-2009. Itâs a problem when volunteers are instructed to place 3 bunnies who died on the same day in the fridge (Faever, Sophie, and Foo) for a necropsy that never happened. They were in there for about 2 weeks before the volunteers finally buried them. This was the same fridge in which volunteers were instructed to keep veggie donations.
This sounds like a personal disagreement, but not abuse. If the rabbits were truly starving, this would have been at the top of this list. Reading between the lines, I suspect Ms. Corson was hoping for or expecting support in this area from the volunteers, who in turn thought Ms. Corson should be responsible for this on her own. (For the record, the volunteers traditionally supply at least some of the food with my rescue).
I have a big problem with information like this because while you and the others allude to dead and dying rabbits, nobody has ever stated what these rabbits died from. I think given the viciousness of the attacks and the ongoing battle to report her to the authorities, these rabbits would have been 'evidence' and we'd be seeing specifics on the deaths.
I see elsewhere you discuss the litters that were born dead or died, do these figures include those? Are you saying that abuse or neglect killed these rabbits or not? Could they not have been taken to the vet or the SPCA for examinations?
Sorry, but I find these shadowy references odorous.
Well, I donât know about the person that wrote âat one timeâ. When I was there, there was a constant severe flea problem. The building remained untreated. She DID give ivermectin shots on occasion. Do you deny that untreated coccidia is a problem? That was rampant there as well. A rabbit that we had begged Ms. Corson to get to the vet was adopted out. Heroic measures were taken to save the rabbit (Mooshu). The rabbit was dead a few days later. Pam Brooks, Ms. Corsonâs adoption counselor, told me that the vet had concluded that the rabbit died of hepatic coccidiosis.
Ivermectin is not my choice for fleas.
Our forum has had members with extremely well-kept barns wiped out by coccidia, it's not a sign of bad conditions or abuse.
We do separate fundraising for a medical fund, we'll have a vet do free health checks and/or staff do nail clippings and all those funds go directly to the Vet. When we get to the 'solutions' part of this mess (which I fully intend to do), a medical coordinator or a vet on the board of directors might be a strong suggestion.
So would calls for donations of meds like Revolution or Advantage, Panacur, etc, again given to the Vet.
Kristie is or at least should be awesome at promoting the Vets and should be getting free or heavily discounted services for her efforts. They get lots of advertising in exchange for their services.
But of course vets won't be too keen on aligning themselves with a rescue under attack now, would they? And yes, I'm aware of her current vet, Lori Duggan, but I don't know what deal they have.
I think continuing to slag Kristie is going to result in even more medical problems for these reasons. However it started out is immaterial. The detractors are contributing to these kinds of difficulties now.
I am personally offended by this statement. You have no idea of the blood, sweat, and tears that myself and the other volunteers put into caring for those rabbits. We literally begged her to take them to the vet. I COULD NOT afford it, otherwise I would have. I didnât walk out âin a huffâ. It KILLED me to leave those rabbits. I still have NIGHTMARES about leaving those rabbits. Okay, maybe the illnesses started out as mild, but they were often left untreated. She also gave home remedies. One day, we noticed Flower (who had lived at the rescue for around a year â she had not come in like this) was having neurological symptoms. We were promised she would see a vet. She never did. Ms. Corson self-diagnosed Flower with diabetes and was âtreatingâ her with Karo syrup. She was finally taken into foster by a volunteer, taken to a rabbit-savvy vet, and diagnosed with EC. The vet said her prognosis would have been much better if she had been treated earlier. Flower is dead now.
Okay, I'm jaded here, because I have volunteers who demand I take rabbits to the vet for every sneeze, and they have no faith in my experience. (They don't actually even know me).
But rabbits are not prone to diabetes and Karo syrup is awful stuff for them. EC should always be suspected and a round of Panacur administered even if its on spec.
The above suggestions apply here as well.
When facts like these come out it makes me wonder why this considerable effort directed at shutting her down isn't redirected to lobbying for or even fundraising for a Vet fund, appointing a medical coordinator or scheduling regular vet visits (which I do believe is happening now with the mobile vet, Dr. Duggan). I think that would be far more productive and healthier for the rabbits.
This sounds personal, differing opinions. Bruised egos, not bruised rabbits. Not abuse.
Really? What about when the volunteers come together as a group and say, âWe CANNOT take in any more animals. We canât care for the ones we haveâ and are dismissed. What about when the volunteers beg for vet care for a bunny that needs it? This has nothing to do with ego, I assure you.
Why didn't the volunteers try to go public with this type of campaign? Keep the demands reasonable (keeping in mind we ALL have our own opinions on vet care) and only expect concessions, not surrender. Go for moderation or mediation. All we've heard is the 'shut the whore down' rhetoric.
The rabbits were probably up for euthanization before Ms. Corson rescued them. Being overwhelming/sick and threatening/whining about not continuing with the rescue would mean taking them to a shelter where theyâd likely be put down. Itâs a short surrendering = killing them leap. But weâve all threatened to kill someone or something in our lives. (My rabbit just are my phone charger, sheâs been subjected to all manner of death threats).
This is why we were afraid to leave or speak out. She threatened this on a regular basis. Youâre really defending that? And no, these were not joking death threats.
This is not different than what the BJ crew and others are pushing for now -- they want to shut down the rescue. She's not going to murder them, she's going to give them up. That's exactly what BJ and you guys want, isn't it? Why is it different now? There will still be 80 rabbits on the chopping block.
Really? The litter boxes with more poop than litter are okay? I might go an extra day before cleaning my bunniesâ boxes if Iâve had a long day at work, but I can assure you that they have NEVER looked like that. I pray that you never have to experience dumping litter boxes full of writhing maggots. As you can imagine, itâs quite horrifying. I hope you never have to try to clean 80 litter boxes in 100 degree heat with fleas mauling your legs. The urine on the floor was urine that had leaked down through the wood kennels. Every time we made a pen and labeled it âEXERCISE PEN â DO NOT KEEP A BUNNY IN HEREâ (oh yes I made that sign), we found another new arrival in it. I KNOW that rabbits are messy. Iâve had rabbits for 10 years. I also know whatâs normal, and what is unacceptable.
Yes that sounds bad, but have you had 80 rabbits for 10 years? I have about sixty and I've gotten the meds donated so the fleas are gone, but sometimes my house looks just like the photos, should I give it up and just have them euthanized after all? Believe me, if all the people who complain about absolutely everything related to our rescue efforts were the ones responsible for the 80 rabbits, I think they'd be a whole lot quieter.
And try going to some hellhole and seeing a truly abused litter of 10 Flemish Giants all kept in one 2' x 4' cage until their almost three months old and stand there and say 'sorry babies, I don't have enough time, money or volunteers to get you out of here' when there's an empty x-pen in the garage.
And on that note, I have to stop this and take one of those babies -- terribly deformed but alive and happy as all get-out living under my kitchen table -- to the vet for a head abscess that I have no idea how I'm going to pay for.
sas :confused2:
