Lionhead Juniors

[bunnybunbunb]

This winter I had some nice Lionhead litters. I was very excited about them, with good reason! So I have kept 4, 1 Tort doe, 1 Black veinna marked doe, 1 Tort Otter buck, and 1 Sable Point buck. I had 2 pass away last week(got diahhrea, they had only been eating pellets and hay for the last 2 weeks) so I decided to keep some I was going to sell. In this little amount of time I now see it would have been a mistake to sell the ones and keep the others so everything worked out(I'm still sad about the 2 babies though ). Anyway, they are from 2 litters and will be paired according to type and mane when time comes to breed. I think I know who will be breeding to who right now because of their manes but I'm still going to wait to be forsure.

Any comments on type from Lionhead knowledgeable breeders would be awesome.

I LOVE the way this girl looks. Her ears are wonderful which I'm lacking in my herd thanks to not any breeders around with good stock(no offence to them). Her name is Blossum and is coming out so nicely. Clean flanks!

This is Blossum's sister. She use to look the best is looking quite horrible right now and wouldn't pose so I am just showing a front picture. Will make good brood.

This guy has long ears and I don't like his legs but his body is so wide and full, his head is clean, his HQ is full(rare, I find, in Lionheads) and his mane is coming in.

This boy is going to have a HUGE mane! He is very wooly but his saddle is clean. He isn't looking great in type but mom wants to keep him anyway.

I have a few more Lionhead litters due in June then my breeding is done till fall. Our summers are just to brutal.

 

[lilangelhotots]

Wow! they look really nice...especially the first doe.:biggrin2:I love the last picture of the light coloredbuck-they are all cute. Do you have a website? Congrats on such good looking babies.

 

[fld20]

There all adorable But that Sable Point is really cute !

 

[TinysMom]

My comments are based on the fact that I've bred lionheads for three years and I'm active on some lionhead lists and have heard many discussions over the last three years on what to look for in lionheads and what to breed. They're also based on lessons that I've learned the hard way (by wanting to do things my own way).

bunnybunbunb wrote:

I LOVE the way this girl looks. Her ears are wonderful which I'm lacking in my herd thanks to not any breeders around with good stock(no offence to them). Her name is Blossum and is coming out so nicely. Clean flanks!

Of the four - I like this doe the best and I would keep her. I would still prefer to see smaller ears at her age (ears area big problem in my herd - or they were but I was getting them down and I was pleased with my last few litters). Although she seems a bit long in body, she has nice type and good color. Definitely a keeper....but my only concern is you talk about her sister being vienna marked. Does this mean that in her pedigree she has someone who has the vienna gene? If so - then I wouldn't use either doe because the vienna gene will haunt you later on. There have been a great deal of discussion on this on the list I'm on and if you're selling to other breeders and they find out the vienna gene is in your herd - many of them will not buy from you. Of course, if you're just selling for pets...that's fine. Personally, I love the vienna marked rabbits and don't mind breeding them for pets or as part of a BEW program - but I don't breed them at all in my show lines.

This is Blossum's sister. She use to look the best is looking quite horrible right now and wouldn't pose so I am just showing a front picture. Will make good brood.
This doesn't look like vienna markings to me - this looks like just a mismark. From my understanding (I'd have to find my genetics books again to look this up) - the vienna markings usually have more of a dutch look to them almost - there is usually a stripe on the legs and on the face. To me - this looks more like a mismark.

Recently, the use of mismarks was discussed on the lionhead list and most breeders stated that they would not use mismarks in a breeding program unless the doe (they would never use a buck with a mismark) had some very striking features to add into their lines. I would pass on using her - but that is just my opinion. I've bred mismarks before - only to have mismarks in the litter or in the offspring that came from a doe in the litter. So now I pet them out.

But she doesn't look like a vienna-marked doe to me. I'll share more on that at the bottom of the message.

This guy has long ears and I don't like his legs but his body is so wide and full, his head is clean, his HQ is full(rare, I find, in Lionheads) and his mane is coming in.

I understand what you're saying about his full body - but I would not use him at all. Been there - done that (against the advice of other breeders). I would actually sell him and the black doe and use that money towards a higher quality buck. This was a hard lesson for me to learn as I had a buck that I loved - but he looked much like this buck and I did not get anything worth keeping from him. If I had taken the advice of other breeders - I would have been at least 6 months ahead of myself in my breeding - because I would have brought in a different buck.

This boy is going to have a HUGE mane! He is very wooly but his saddle is clean. He isn't looking great in type but mom wants to keep him anyway.
Oh wow - I wish we could see his type. If you have a problem with rabbits keeping their manes as adults - he might be a help with that. I can see why your mom would want to keep him - but without seeing his type its hard to say. I can see where he might help with the mane gene.

The best advice I was given 3 years ago (and I wish I'd taken it then) was to buy one HIGH QUALITY buck - to put the most of my money into the buck if need be....because he would pass his genes on to every rabbit born. I was told to get as close to perfect as I could and then go from there.

I didn't listen. I thought I could do it my way.....big big big mistake.

As many know - I've said I'm getting out of breeding. I most likely am still getting out (I have breeders contacting me and asking me to reconsider breeding after I take a year or two off). The one decision I've made IF I ever start breeding again (which I'm not sure I will) is that I will find that one buck that I think gives me what I need and only use him and have like 2 or 3 girls that I can breed him with. I'm not as strict on the girls but the buck has to have type and mane that has the crinkled look to it. I think if I had listened to the advice 3 years ago - I would be much happier with my breeding and been more successful.

I have a few more Lionhead litters due in June then my breeding is done till fall. Our summers are just to brutal.

Here is what I read about the vienna gene on a website - I think it describes very well what I was trying to say about it..

The Vienna gene, which makes BEW, is not one of the five major color genes, and acts differently than the other genes. A BEW, bred to any other color, including ruby-eyed white, will produce colored rabbits the first generation. These are sometimes called "Dutch marked," because they almost always have some white on them, in the same pattern arrangement as a non show quality Dutch breed rabbit. Most have a white blaze or spot on the forehead and/or nose. Some have one or two white feet. I have even had a few with more white than color. A few may even have a pretty good Dutch breed pattern, even though the Vienna gene has no relationship to the dutch gene at all.

I prefer to call these "Dutch marked" rabbits, "Vienna marked", so there will be no confusion in termonology with the Dutch rabbit breed. Some Vienna marked rabbits have all blue eyes. Most have eyes that are part blue (a distinct section of the iris) and part brown, or blue gray (in the case of dilute colors). This variation in eye color, is another similarity with the Dutch rabbit breed.

These Vienna marked rabbits are good for breeding to get BEW, but aren't showable, because of the white markings and off-colored eyes.

Once in a while, a bunny is born that has one Vienna gene, but is normal colored, without any white, and with normal colored eyes. This is the exception, rather than the rule. I like to call these rabbits "Vienna carriers", because they do have one Vienna gene, but it doesn't show. They are a dual purpose animal - breeding stock for BEW, and showable too.

http://www.psci.net/haencaoo/bew.html

 

[lilangelhotots]

What great advice Peg, thanks for taking the time to critique each bunny~I actually learned a lot! I know nothing about lionheads but can apply your breeding advice to raising my breed.

Thanks again!

ETA: do you have pictures of the parents of these babies? I'd love to see them

 

[TinysMom]

Thanks ~ I am glad I was able to help you.

When I first started breeding - I had a mentor and I learned a lot from her. Unfortunately, there were some things I wasn't willing to learn because I wanted to use my own bunnies as much as possible.

More than one breeder told me, "Stop buying rabbits until you find THE RIGHT buck....be willing to pay high dollars to get THE RIGHT buck."

Last year - I wound up getting THE RIGHT buck. He's really wonderful and he did a lot of good stuff for my herd. I got him from a friend's daughter - I paid all of $75 for him (plus shipping him) - but if I had it to do over again - I probably would have gone up to $300 for him if need be. He just takes care of so many of my faults....he has small ears...carries the dwarfing gene....nice face....even a full butt.

By the way - I got him from Legendary Lionheads - http://www.legendaryminis.com/LionheadRabbits.html

They have some of the nicest lionheads I've ever seen at some of the best prices I've seen. To me - its well worth selling off some rabbits to bring in a buck from them....they've really come a long way in breeding and they're just really good folks with really nice rabbits.

I also like Streamside Bunnies out of Ohio - Bryon is fantastic to deal with....(then again - he's one who said if I will let him know that I'm getting back into breeding - he'll do a special breeding of harlequins for me - and anything else I need he'll put me on his list for and help me find it). His blues are to die for - or so I heard from folks who have seen them shown...

Here's his website:

http://www.geocities.com/streamsidebunnies/

My point is that there are folks out there selling lionheads for reasonable prices and I would advise anyone to invest in a really good buck....instead of being like me....and having several bucks none of which really did what I needed.

Oh well....live and learn...I sure did!