Insatiable appetite, lots of output - normal or no?

[tonyshuman]

Not amoxicillin, right? That would be fatal and cause diarrhea if given orally, go to an emergency vet if that's it.

 

[kirbyultra]

tonyshuman wrote:

Azithromycin? Its good for some things, but can cause gi upset.

that's the one!! I think.. I remember thinking when I heard it that I've taken it before (for humans)...not amoxicillan. I know that's deadly orally for buns.

BTW, I haven't gotten the meds yet so I know that's not the cause of her mushed poop.

SHe has pooped plenty of normal ones this afternoon though. Maybe it was too many veggies?

 

[cirrustwi]

Yes, maybe too many veggies and too much stress from the combo of everything. Keep watching her.

 

[Maureen Las]

Alkaline phosphotase is the liver enzyme that would be elevated in liver disease..usually other enzymes would also be elevated.

I'm glad that the kidney levels were normal. but it still seems to me that something is not right.

I would just continue to monitor everything .
The poop in the pic almost looks like cecals to me.

also Make sure the drug is azithromycin and and not amoxicillin. ..

and let us know...

 

[kirbyultra]

The pic is a bit overexposed, sorry. The poop isn't cecal-like, but it was a bit sticky. Definitely wet. Not solid at all. About 30 min later she did poop a very loose bunch of cecals and didn't eat them. I prob need to dial back her veg. She already gets half what my other buns get. Frankly I don't remember her being this veggie sensitive when she was at petco but then again we only saw her once daily there. Maybe it was missed or maybe she ate them later on back then. I have a feeling she was fed more veg at petco because we wanted to make sure she was well fed in case something happened and the next day's volunteer can't make it to feed the buns. She handled food at petco exceptionally well. Just at my house she's gotten all poopy

and I believe you're right about the elevated value being alkaline phoaphotase. I have a copy of the blood test, and I'll confirm tomorrow. I think that was high and something else was low but everything else was normal.... Platelet count was messed up be cuz the sample they took contained some kind of clot that would mess up the numbers, but the vet didn't seem to be bothered by that blip.

Will definitely check the medication before administering!

 

[kirbyultra]

OH my gosh I must've heard wrong on the cell phone. It's Enrofloxacin/Baytril! Isn't that a fairly ineffective antibiotic now?

 

[Maureen Las]

The bacteria in many rabbits have become resistant to baytril but if it has not been used on the rabbit previously and the dosage is correct it sometimes is OK.
I questioned your vets decision to even order an antibiotic when she has no idea what is going on.
If you think that an infection is lurking somewhere you could ask your vet about using another drug but at this point an antibiotic probably was not even needed.

 

[kirbyultra]

I don't know what to do. If I give it to her, what is the downside? I paid a buttload of money for it too (my vet overcharges for everything. I ran out of limbs to pay her with a long time ago!). And now I realize it's not what I thought it was. Ughh...:grumpy

Should I give it? Should I not?

 

[tonyshuman]

Yeah, it does seem weird that the vet would give Baytril without any indication that it's a bacterial infection. Bacterial infection should look a little different on the CBC too, I think. I'm guessing they assume she has a UTI because she's peeing so much, although they couldn't see it on the urine sample. TBH it doesn't sound like your vet really knows what he's doing here. Increased urinary output doesn't really mean UTI, and she's not having incontinence issues, right? I wonder if having another vet (or even Randy, or another infirmary mod) take a look at the blood test values would help.

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/blood.shtml

http://books.google.com/books?id=3G...#v=onepage&q=rabbit blood test values&f=false

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Hematology/blood_chemistry.htm

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-2/geriatric.html

 

[kirbyultra]

Frankly I'm pretty peeved at my vet right now. The unfortunate thing is that we don't know enough about rabbits but the least they could do was lay it out for me. I'm so annoyed that I paid a ton of money to see her, get all these tests, get medication that may not even apply, and I had to call back like 3 times to get someone to even interpret the results for me over the phone. Part of it is because I know she is not at the office that often and another rabbit vet takes over the days she is not. But I just feel like I'm being given the runaround and I'm spending money left and right. Meanwhile, I don't even know if something's wrong with my rabbit.

I have the blood test results in front of me. The 3 values that were not normal were:
Vet Screen-
Alkaline Phosphatase: 80 (High)
Globulin: 2.5 (low)
Phosphorus: 3.2 (low)

Here's what it says under CBC:
Hemoglobin 12.1 (normal)
Small fibrin clot in tube - validity of findings in question suggest repeat exam
Hemacrit 36.6 (normal)
WBC 3.0 (low)
RBC 5.69 (normal)
MCV 64 (normal)
MCH 21.3 (normal)
MCHC 33.1 (normal)
platelet count: platelet clumps are detected in this sample. Platelet clumping prevents precise determiniation of a platelet count and falsely decreases the platelet number. The reported count reflects the minimum platelet number. The platelet estimate reflects the estimated contribution of platelet clumps
Platelet Estimate: Decreased
Differential: Absolute
Neutrophils: 810 (low) 27%
Bands: 0
Lymphocytes 2010 67%
Monocytes: 90 3%
Eosinophils: 0
Basophils: 90 3%
Blood Parasites: none seen

 

[tonyshuman]

I would ask for another exam for free. Sounds like they messed it up and that screwed up the results. I can read some stuff from those websites to try to interpret it during my down time at work tomorrow.

 

[kirbyultra]

Actually, now that I am looking at it again, WBC is low! Wouldn't that suggest the OPPOSITE of an infection being present? At least where blood is concerned?

 

[cirrustwi]

I'd love to see the blood work. Is there any chance you can scan it and put it up or copy the levels? I know that's a pain in the butt, but it can be so helpful.

I think you might want a second opinion before giving the antibiotic. I hate to see any antibiotic used unnecessarily, and I'm still confused as to why one was ordered here when the tests were inconclusive. I'm guessing, like Tonyshuman, that your vet is thinking UTI. I tried to look through, although I admit it was quickly, to see again how the catch was obtained? I did see that the vet was unable to extract it once, but maybe later? It can be difficult to obtain a "clean" catch from other methods.

Baytril can still be used effectively, it honestly depends on the bacteria. (However at this point, I do believe it is most effective for reptiles.) I've seen it used to treat a variety of things, so maybe that's your vet's thinking? And it is safe for the rabbit digestive system (which has become my favorite topic of discussion at work, I think I might drive Mike (the vet) insane! ). But another broad spectrum antibiotic might be more useful.

Jen

 

[kirbyultra]

Jen, I will do that right now. I was just pulling out my scanner!

 

[kirbyultra]

Let me know if it's too small to read, I can resize the scan.

Thanks everyone.

 

[kirbyultra]

Any ideas? :?

So anyway, I have this baytril in my fridge now. How long is it "good" for? I dont know what to do with it now

 

[tonyshuman]

Sorry, busy day at work. Still working actually.

The elevated alk phos can mean liver disease or bone disease. I can find one thing that might answer all of the abnormal values (I ignored the CBC because of the clot and looked only at the serum chemistry): metabolic bone disease. Globulin is a sign of inflammation or dehydration (dehydration due to excess peeing to dilute the calcium in the urine), and low phosphorus is also a sign of kidney disease. It's just a guess. It's possible that she has this but isn't having issues with stones or sludge because she drinks so much. :dunno:

 

[kirbyultra]

I am asking my primary vet to take another look at the results of both tests and give me an opinion. I dont like giving antibiotics unless I have to. .. I hate to offend the other vet who called me in my vet's place... I just don't have a good feeling about it.

 

[tonyshuman]

I agree.

 

[cirrustwi]

tonyshuman wrote:

Sorry, busy day at work. Still working actually.

The elevated alk phos can mean liver disease or bone disease. I can find one thing that might answer all of the abnormal values (I ignored the CBC because of the clot and looked only at the serum chemistry): metabolic bone disease. Globulin is a sign of inflammation or dehydration (dehydration due to excess peeing to dilute the calcium in the urine), and low phosphorus is also a sign of kidney disease. It's just a guess. It's possible that she has this but isn't having issues with stones or sludge because she drinks so much. :dunno:

Sorry, I actually just getting to look at this. It's been a busy couple of days and I knew this would take some thought, so I wanted to take some time and look.

I have to agree with everything above. I actually can believe I didn't think of it earlier. MBD is something I see a lot in reptiles. In rabbits it tends to be associated with chronic UTIs, and since that didn't seem to be an issue...But since she drinks so much, maybe she isn't showing this issue.

I'm glad you are getting another opinion. I'd also ask about the blood work in general. I'm just not too comfortable with the fact that a clot was allowed to form...
Jen