Gabriel (my avatar) is in stasis
- Thread starter Maureen Las
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The major reason that I'm hesitaing is that Randy told Angela the same thing and she let the vet give (metoclorpromide?)
Since Gabriel has a colon condition like Sprite ..how can I feel that its safe?
Is Cisapride safer than metoclopromide.
I know that its off the market for humans (propulsid)
Since Gabriel has a colon condition like Sprite ..how can I feel that its safe?
Is Cisapride safer than metoclopromide.
I know that its off the market for humans (propulsid)
naturestee
Well-Known Member
Not Gabriel!
Ivory, Sprite died of ileus but both she and Fey suffer from megacolon or a similar chronic intestinal problem which are very common to their breed Dwarf Hotot. Gabriel has similar coloring (studies show it to be a color-linked problem) and seems to have similar issues, as does JimD's hotot mix Chippy. Frequent intestinal problems and chronic wonky-shaped poop, tests for parasites are negative.
I've only had one experience with gut motility drugs, and that was with Sprite's ileus. I never had a necropsy done but it may have been the end cause that killed her as she did have a little blood on her anus when she died. It's possible that it cause a rupture even though my vet felt confident that she did not have a blockage.
I've had similar gas issues with Sprite and Fey and the main thing that has helped them is gentle tummy massages and lots of them. James is the master of bunny farts, LOL! Try holding him so that his rear is slightly above the rest of him, it may help the gas move out. He might even settle down and enjoy the massage- Sprite usually did even though she hated hands very very much. And simethicone did not help at all when Sprite had a major several-day-long gas/bloat episode. I don't think it was able to get to where it needed to go, since she was so stopped up. She did nibble veggies on and off during that, mainly right after a good tummy rub.
FYI, I think when JimD's Chippy was sick once, the vet suspected Clostridium infection and the treatments for that did seem to help. It is something that tends to take advantage of intestinal problems so it might be secondary.
Oh, and don't be surprised when he starts pooping again if he has a lot of mucous. It tends to happen to any rabbit that has intestinal irritation or is recovering from GI stasis, and Fey and Sprite both tended to get mucous from any intestinal problems.
Lots of hugs for you! And try not to think about Sprite and scare yourself, this does not sound like the kind of severe ileus that she had. I think you have my phone number, you're welcome to call if you want.
:hug:
Ivory, Sprite died of ileus but both she and Fey suffer from megacolon or a similar chronic intestinal problem which are very common to their breed Dwarf Hotot. Gabriel has similar coloring (studies show it to be a color-linked problem) and seems to have similar issues, as does JimD's hotot mix Chippy. Frequent intestinal problems and chronic wonky-shaped poop, tests for parasites are negative.
I've only had one experience with gut motility drugs, and that was with Sprite's ileus. I never had a necropsy done but it may have been the end cause that killed her as she did have a little blood on her anus when she died. It's possible that it cause a rupture even though my vet felt confident that she did not have a blockage.
I've had similar gas issues with Sprite and Fey and the main thing that has helped them is gentle tummy massages and lots of them. James is the master of bunny farts, LOL! Try holding him so that his rear is slightly above the rest of him, it may help the gas move out. He might even settle down and enjoy the massage- Sprite usually did even though she hated hands very very much. And simethicone did not help at all when Sprite had a major several-day-long gas/bloat episode. I don't think it was able to get to where it needed to go, since she was so stopped up. She did nibble veggies on and off during that, mainly right after a good tummy rub.
FYI, I think when JimD's Chippy was sick once, the vet suspected Clostridium infection and the treatments for that did seem to help. It is something that tends to take advantage of intestinal problems so it might be secondary.
Oh, and don't be surprised when he starts pooping again if he has a lot of mucous. It tends to happen to any rabbit that has intestinal irritation or is recovering from GI stasis, and Fey and Sprite both tended to get mucous from any intestinal problems.
Lots of hugs for you! And try not to think about Sprite and scare yourself, this does not sound like the kind of severe ileus that she had. I think you have my phone number, you're welcome to call if you want.
:hug:
Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
angieluv wrote:
Sorry, I just felt someone should say something regarding veterinary advice. I always worry about legalities. I'm goofy like that - I am a libra -
I know nothing about any of this really. I he gets better soon!
Sorry, I just felt someone should say something regarding veterinary advice. I always worry about legalities. I'm goofy like that - I am a libra -
I know nothing about any of this really. I he gets better soon!
Naturestee, ileus doesn't have a good prognosis in rabbits. Prognosis is, at its very best, quite guarded.
Actually, Cisapride is safer than metaclopramide. When used in conjunction they work very well.
So, how can you feel that it's safe? Because rabbit medical textbooks say that it is generally safe, if there is no true blockage or problems with the pyloric valve.
Vets are trained in this.
Actually, Cisapride is safer than metaclopramide. When used in conjunction they work very well.
So, how can you feel that it's safe? Because rabbit medical textbooks say that it is generally safe, if there is no true blockage or problems with the pyloric valve.
Vets are trained in this.
Pipp
Well-Known Member
Angela, can you post Rami's opinion on this issue? I know he commented on Etherbun over the course of a couple of posts in response to a direct question about the GM drugs. (Sorry I can't do that myself right now!)
sas
sas
Well I decided to give one dose of Cisapride and one dose of Cipro and D)Gabriel has already started to poop his big misshapen poops with a lot of mucus on them..so in this case it hasworked. I am interested in Rami's response, Pipp, as I don't recall it. I could not hold Gabriel to massage him as he isjust too much for me and I felt so sorry for him as he looked so uncomfortable so I went ahead and gave it as I did use Propulsive and Reglan with Sheba.. and Reglan with Joey with no ill effects ... I have used both these drugs before.
I was most concerned aboyut Gabriel because his problems are the "English spot" and "hotot" gene and there is no doubt in my mind that he is a mix of the spot.
in this case, however, it seems to be doing the job combined with everything I gave him yesterday.
I can't take a stand on these drugs and I guess they work for some and not for others..depending exactly on the condition. I took a chance with this and think he will be OK.
I do not have any opinion at all on whether they are safe but say it is hit or miss and I was lucky.
just wanting all too know that "our bloat" Is diminishing
D)Gabriel has already started to poop his big misshapen poops with a lot of mucus on them..so in this case it hasworked. I am interested in Rami's response, Pipp, as I don't recall it. I could not hold Gabriel to massage him as he isjust too much for me and I felt so sorry for him as he looked so uncomfortable so I went ahead and gave it as I did use Propulsive and Reglan with Sheba.. and Reglan with Joey with no ill effects ... I have used both these drugs before. I was most concerned aboyut Gabriel because his problems are the "English spot" and "hotot" gene and there is no doubt in my mind that he is a mix of the spot.
in this case, however, it seems to be doing the job combined with everything I gave him yesterday.
I can't take a stand on these drugs and I guess they work for some and not for others..depending exactly on the condition. I took a chance with this and think he will be OK.
I do not have any opinion at all on whether they are safe but say it is hit or miss and I was lucky.
just wanting all too know that "our bloat" Is diminishing
Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
GREAT NEWS! Now just keep him eating and pooping!
I've been so worried about him, and the others dealing with surgery and illness today!
Keep us up to date! Come on little Gabe - Nice fluffy poos now!
I've been so worried about him, and the others dealing with surgery and illness today!
Keep us up to date! Come on little Gabe - Nice fluffy poos now!
At some point we , as a group , have to come to some conclusion about the thoughtful discriminatory use of these drugs
With such opposing opinions it is difficult to know what to do.
It is almost as if east meets west. ...I felt very frightened and uncertain giving these meds despite the fact that they were prescribed. Maybe that is good as they are probably positive in some cases and not so in others and it is probably up to us as to whether we want to take the risks.
I am glad that things are turning out well for Gabriel but I am not endorsing these meds...especially after Sprite and the fact that Gabriel has some of the same physical characteristics
With such opposing opinions it is difficult to know what to do.
It is almost as if east meets west. ...I felt very frightened and uncertain giving these meds despite the fact that they were prescribed. Maybe that is good as they are probably positive in some cases and not so in others and it is probably up to us as to whether we want to take the risks.
I am glad that things are turning out well for Gabriel but I am not endorsing these meds...especially after Sprite and the fact that Gabriel has some of the same physical characteristics
cmh9023
Well-Known Member
Hi Maureen,
I just saw this post tonight. I'm glad to hear he's doing better!!
Cara
I just saw this post tonight. I'm glad to hear he's doing better!!
Cara
Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
You know, I think what we have to do is say that they aren't always the best. Bunnies are so sensitive and unusual as a group - it doesn't suprise me that some aren't going to do as well as others - unfortunately.
Maybe it would be good to keep some records? To see how people do with these things?
Personally, I have to say that if it were me, I would go with what my vet says. However, I think I have the most awesome vet in the midwest! Other regular and equine vets feel the same about her too.
I don't know what her thoughts are but if I get a chance I will sure ask her!
Maybe it would be good to keep some records? To see how people do with these things?
Personally, I have to say that if it were me, I would go with what my vet says. However, I think I have the most awesome vet in the midwest! Other regular and equine vets feel the same about her too.
I don't know what her thoughts are but if I get a chance I will sure ask her!
Like I said, Cisapride is generally considered safe and very effective for rabbits. Some prefer it, some don't. Some like to use it, some don't. It's a matter of personal choice.
I always go by what the vet says, or, if I don't understand what they want me to do, I question it and ask until I am sure I understand their logic.
I always go by what the vet says, or, if I don't understand what they want me to do, I question it and ask until I am sure I understand their logic.
naturestee
Well-Known Member
I'm so glad the bloat is going down! You might see him pooping a little soon, at least if he is like Sprite. She went on and off between pooping and being stopped up with gas for the next day or so after she started getting better. If you can't massage him, try to get him to move around as much as possible.
SAS, was this the post you were thinking of? There were so many, and they all started blurring together for me.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/etherbun/message/125993
> 1) an esteemed member on the RO site (rabbitsonline.net) is
> adamantly opposed to gm drugs mainly because he believes they
> cause spasms and pain. (And when I think about it, I don't know
> that I'd want my intestines rippling). How much of an issue
> would this be?
Impairment of muscle tone (dystonic) reactions have been reported after
administration of metoclopramide, which result, among others, in facial
muscle spasm during the first days of administration. If this is observed,
the drug should be stopped immediately.
Metoclopramide is given, to activate the intestine, and so acting against
pain. Indeed, stasis is one of the most painful problem that probably exist,
and those who experienced it know that pain is unbearable and pain relief
barely able to take away some of the pain. This is why strong pain
medication is necessary.
>
> 2) can a virus contribute to a sudden slowdown of the GI tract?
Viruses affecting the GI tract of the rabbit usually lead to severe diarrhea
and death in young animals. If acute pain is present, this can in itself
lead to a slowdown.
> that gums up the works or is there more likely to be something
> else in play (aside from stress) slowing down the system?
There is probably much more involved than just stress.
>
> 3) Rami, when do you and don't you advocate the use of gut
> motility drugs?
^
My "basis" recipe is SC fluids, pain medication and massaging the abdomen,
gently, in circle into the direction of the anus, accompanied by a forced
exercising of the rabbit, without exhausting it. This works well in a lot of
rabbit, especially when caught early. Depending on the case, e.g. heavy
shedding + dental issues, or presence of a mass, and after taking X-rays,
motility drugs may or may not be given. Same for antibiotics, it is case
dependent.
If for some reason, X-rays are not possible, I apply the basic recipe, and
prefer to skip on motility drugs. As said before, this relate to a necropsy
that showed a ruptured pylorus hours after giving gut motility drug to a
rabbit.
Rami
SAS, was this the post you were thinking of? There were so many, and they all started blurring together for me.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/etherbun/message/125993
> 1) an esteemed member on the RO site (rabbitsonline.net) is
> adamantly opposed to gm drugs mainly because he believes they
> cause spasms and pain. (And when I think about it, I don't know
> that I'd want my intestines rippling). How much of an issue
> would this be?
Impairment of muscle tone (dystonic) reactions have been reported after
administration of metoclopramide, which result, among others, in facial
muscle spasm during the first days of administration. If this is observed,
the drug should be stopped immediately.
Metoclopramide is given, to activate the intestine, and so acting against
pain. Indeed, stasis is one of the most painful problem that probably exist,
and those who experienced it know that pain is unbearable and pain relief
barely able to take away some of the pain. This is why strong pain
medication is necessary.
>
> 2) can a virus contribute to a sudden slowdown of the GI tract?
Viruses affecting the GI tract of the rabbit usually lead to severe diarrhea
and death in young animals. If acute pain is present, this can in itself
lead to a slowdown.
> that gums up the works or is there more likely to be something
> else in play (aside from stress) slowing down the system?
There is probably much more involved than just stress.
>
> 3) Rami, when do you and don't you advocate the use of gut
> motility drugs?
^
My "basis" recipe is SC fluids, pain medication and massaging the abdomen,
gently, in circle into the direction of the anus, accompanied by a forced
exercising of the rabbit, without exhausting it. This works well in a lot of
rabbit, especially when caught early. Depending on the case, e.g. heavy
shedding + dental issues, or presence of a mass, and after taking X-rays,
motility drugs may or may not be given. Same for antibiotics, it is case
dependent.
If for some reason, X-rays are not possible, I apply the basic recipe, and
prefer to skip on motility drugs. As said before, this relate to a necropsy
that showed a ruptured pylorus hours after giving gut motility drug to a
rabbit.
Rami
naturestee
Well-Known Member
Oh, and my vet prefers Cisapride to Metoclopramide, he thinks it works better. But he's very cautious about using either as he has seen some problems.
Oh, they can exist. I guess my point was, in the right circumstance and used properly, I see nothing wrong with using it.
If a rabbit has a blockage, however, it generally is not good to give, as it can, as Rami (don't know who he is...) said, give the pyloric valve some problems.
I hope I didn't sound too careless, I didn't mean to.
If a rabbit has a blockage, however, it generally is not good to give, as it can, as Rami (don't know who he is...) said, give the pyloric valve some problems.
I hope I didn't sound too careless, I didn't mean to.
yeh ..he's slowly getting back to his messy piggy un -neutered self. maureen
maureenIvory .. you didn"t sound careless at all..it is just that there are so many differing opinions that it get mind boggling.
cheryl
Well-Known Member
angieluv wrote:
Ohh thank goodness for that!...what happy news
Cheryl
yeh ..he's slowly getting back to his messy piggy un -neutered self.
Ohh thank goodness for that!...what happy news
Cheryl
Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
Add that to the stress of a sick bunner and we are all mind boggled!
I worry about my own, and then I start worrying about everyone elses and then the confusing medicines! No wonder it's hard to find a good vet sometimes!
I sure hope he gets back to completely pooing all over your lovely house! LOL!
I wrapped Tony in a nice warm blankie tonight and held him. At first he didn't like it, but then he snuggled down in it and relaxed. We got lots of nice poos tonight too....... I think he was waiting to get back into his cage. I think I'm going to have to drag his litterbox with him to play now. *sigh* particular little turds.
angieluv wrote:
I worry about my own, and then I start worrying about everyone elses and then the confusing medicines! No wonder it's hard to find a good vet sometimes!
I sure hope he gets back to completely pooing all over your lovely house! LOL!
I wrapped Tony in a nice warm blankie tonight and held him. At first he didn't like it, but then he snuggled down in it and relaxed. We got lots of nice poos tonight too....... I think he was waiting to get back into his cage. I think I'm going to have to drag his litterbox with him to play now. *sigh* particular little turds.
angieluv wrote:
Pipp
Well-Known Member
naturestee wrote:
Thanks Angela, those areexactly the postsand sections I meant.
Rami is withMediRabbit (a rabbit medicine site run by vets), he'sEtherbun's most trusted source. He lives in Switzerland.
Buddha said:
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
sas :thanks:
Thanks Angela, those areexactly the postsand sections I meant.
Rami is withMediRabbit (a rabbit medicine site run by vets), he'sEtherbun's most trusted source. He lives in Switzerland.
Buddha said:
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
sas :thanks:
