For the Breeders: Kits too large for doe?

[Samara]

I don't have a pregnant doe - I don't breed. I wanted to get that right out there so no one worries.

The reason I ask is because today I adopted a 2 year old Lionhead doe that is about 4-5 pounds (she's a big girl, obviously). I had explained to the breeder that I do have 2 junior bucks but they are due to be neutered this month. We don't expect to have any litters, nor do they have access to each other since we've modified their NIC pens.

The curious part is that while we were talking the breeder mentioned that she had an English Lop buck that was about 11 pounds and she wanted to breed the doe I bought, Molly, with him, but decided not to because shebelieved the kits would be too large for her to carry.

I couldn't decide if she was trying to dissuade me from breeding, when I'd given her every indication we won't be, or if she truly does have an English Lop buck. I had mentioned that one of mine is an English (the other is a Mini Lop) in a previous email to her, and at no point did she mention she had any English lops. She has Neatherlands, Jersies, Lionlops and Lionheads.

It was just very sudden and random in the conversation. It left me scratching my head on the way home.

Still not planning on breeding them, but now I'm curious. Does anyone have any experience with this sort of thing?

I can imagine that this might happen to some breeds of dog, so certainly rabbits then, but a 4-5lb doe with an 11 pound buck? Granted she is half his size by weight, I have Molly within sight ofmy English Lop Buck and their bodies are the same girth and size. He weighs about 7.5 pounds. He's still a junior so he'll fill out sure, but I can't see that 4ish pounds is going to make him physically "too large".

I'm naive and ignorant when it comes to breeding rabbits, so please enlighten me my fellow rabbit peoples!!

I can't imagine breeding a dwarf rabbit with a giant breed...I suppose the line has to be somewhere though.

What the heck would Lionhead/English Lop rabbits LOOK like?? anic:If it helps, my buck is solid blue and she is a broken chestnut.

Thanks guys!

 

[OneTwoThree]

I think she's talking about the kits being too large for the mother to carry. I imagine its better for the mother to be the larger of the 2 if you're mixing the breeds to be sure that she'll carry without any trauma.

There are very cute lionlops, actually I almost got one instead of my Lady

 

[Samara]

I agree that she was talking about the doe not being able to carry the kits, sorry if that was lost in translation.

I wonder if there is a science to it? Or a rule? I suppose a lot of people that breed offer pedigrees, so they don't often cross something as different as a lionhead and an english lop.

Are Lionlops a specific cross of 2 breeds, or just a Lionhead with any kind of lop?

 

[Samara]

It's interesting though;

The genetics wouldn't be different having the larger of the two be the doe...wouldn't the kits be the same size regardless?

I can see how the mechanics of actual mating would be easier, but the litter itself would be the same mix.

Hrm..

 

[OneTwoThree]

Samara wrote:

I agree that she was talking about the doe not being able to carry the kits, sorry if that was lost in translation.

I wonder if there is a science to it? Or a rule? I suppose a lot of people that breed offer pedigrees, so they don't often cross something as different as a lionhead and an english lop.

Are Lionlops a specific cross of 2 breeds, or just a Lionhead with any kind of lop?

Good breeders have a science to it, they know genetics to the point they breed both for color and for health/bone structure etc. Lionheads aren't a recognized breed so there aren't pedegrees for them, but I have no idea if lionlops are made from a specific lop or what.

 

[OneTwoThree]

Samara wrote:

It's interesting though;

The genetics wouldn't be different having the larger of the two be the doe...wouldn't the kits be the same size regardless?

I can see how the mechanics of actual mating would be easier, but the litter itself would be the same mix.

Hrm..

The kits would be the same size, but the mother would be able to carry without trauma to her. It's like trying to pack 8 clowns in a side car vs 8 clowns in a mini-van

ETA- Actually I think certain genes come from each parent, so its possible the kits would be slightly different in their genetics as well.

 

[Samara]

This stuff is so neat! I can see how breeders really get into their work and programs. It really is a passion. I never doubted it, but trying to imagine what kinds of crosses would result in X, Y and Z is really cool to consider.

 

[OneTwoThree]

Yeah it is really super interesting. Maybe a pro will pop in

 

[LakeCondo]

I remember being traumatized as a kid by someone's little dog got knocked up by a larger dog. The poor thing died because the puppies weren't aborted & were too big.

 

[Samara]

That's awful

I do think people should be well educated on things before attempting to breed any animal. I think had the people with the small dog taken measures and advice from their vet they may have been able to avoid losing their wee dog to something so scary. Accident or not (I wasn't implying they intended said pooch to become pregnant), it should have brought some question to mind that the mother might become distressed.

That brings me back to my original pondering - how do you make the call to breed rabbits with size differences (ethics, overpopulation, all the stigmas utterly aside)? Does anyone know what ranges are safe for either combination of larger doe/smaller doe? Or have any best guesses?

Has anyone been in a situation where they have had a question about aborting a litter because the kits were simply too large in the womb?What did you do? If you haven't, what would you do? How would you decide?

 

[Samara]

It would be amazing if a pro popped in, you're right!

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

OneTwoThree wrote

Lionheads aren't a recognized breed so there aren't pedegrees for them, but I have no idea if lionlops are made from a specific lop or what.

Lionheads do have pedigrees. They might not be recognized yet, but there are in the process. This means the rabbits being used must have a pedigree. Keep in mind that a pedigree is only a record of the lineage of a rabbit. A mixed breed could have a pedigree if the parents and other relations are known.

Some breeders will do crosses to get a specific colour or to help with making a new breed. I know some breeders will add some Netherland Dwarf into Lionhead lines to improve the body or other things. Some Belgian Hare breeders want to get the Tan colour, so will breed a tan into the line, with this the hare would be the doe and the tan the buck.

One thing about genetics is it is not split 50/50. If you have a 4 pound rabbit mixed with an 8 pound rabbit, the kits aren't all going to be in the middle at 6 pounds, you can have some closer to one end or the other. A lop rabbit and an up eared rabbit won't always have babies that are 1/2 lopped, some can be more fully loped and other have fully up ears. You'd think that is might not matter which rabbit is the mother and which is the father, but dominant and recessive genes and make a big difference.

 

[Samara]

I was wondering about the pedigree... I got a pedigree with Molly (lionhead) today. I figured it would allow me to see relatives in any case...just as you said about showing lineage.

I did find that the breeder used LionLOP and LionHEAD interchangeably. My girl has upright ears, so could be a Lionlop with just up ears... that much I had read about in the past about up and down ears.

Are people working on 2 different standards for Lionheads and Lionlops? Or are they actually interchangeable?

 

[Samara]

Samara wrote:

I was wondering about the pedigree... I got a pedigree with Molly (lionhead) today. I figured it would allow me to see relatives in any case...just as you said about showing lineage.

I did find that the breeder used LionLOP and LionHEAD interchangeably. My girl has upright ears, so could be a Lionlop with just up ears... that much I had read about in the past about up and down ears.

Are people working on 2 different standards for Lionheads and Lionlops? Or are they actually interchangeable?

Also, her peds say "LionLOP" but the breeder advertised her as a "Lionhead" - so I if they aren't interchangeable perhaps a mistake happened or it was just a mistake when her portion of the pedigree was filled in.

In any case, her breeding days are over! It just makes me curious. I don't want to seem exceptionally uninformed when I'm talking about her..so I thought I'd ask!

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

The Loinlop is a breed in England. There are a few people doing some stuff with it in North America, but I don't think anything too serious. I think that if the Lionhead gets recognized that the Lionlop won't have a chance since it would be too similar to the lionhead (with only the ears being different).
They really aren't interchangeable since they are different, but lionheads would be used to make lionlops. But since other breeds have also been used (Holland Lop most likely), it can be hard to breed both from the same lines. You can't really breed a Lion lop back to a lion head and get babies that fit the standard.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

I had an English Lop break into a doe's cage one day back when I had EL's. She did get pregnant, and even though she was a proven doe, she had them all on the wire. They did seem stretched out more than normal DOA kits, so I can only imagine they were a bit big for her.

If a doe is bred to a larger buck, say two or three times, it'll increase the amount of kits she has, and so they'll be smaller, because there's more of them. If she's only bred once to him, she has a higher chance of having a smaller litter of bigger kits.

However, I wouldn't ever breed a doe to a larger buck that is anything over a few ounces bigger than the doe. It's still dangerous.

Emily

 

[Samara]

Korr_and_Sophie wrote:

The Loinlop is a breed in England. There are a few people doing some stuff with it in North America, but I don't think anything too serious. I think that if the Lionhead gets recognized that the Lionlop won't have a chance since it would be too similar to the lionhead (with only the ears being different).
They really aren't interchangeable since they are different, but lionheads would be used to make lionlops. But since other breeds have also been used (Holland Lop most likely), it can be hard to breed both from the same lines. You can't really breed a Lion lop back to a lion head and get babies that fit the standard.

Interesting, thank you!

 

[Samara]

BlueCamasRabbitry wrote:

I had an English Lop break into a doe's cage one day back when I had EL's. She did get pregnant, and even though she was a proven doe, she had them all on the wire. They did seem stretched out more than normal DOA kits, so I can only imagine they were a bit big for her.

If a doe is bred to a larger buck, say two or three times, it'll increase the amount of kits she has, and so they'll be smaller, because there's more of them. If she's only bred once to him, she has a higher chance of having a smaller litter of bigger kits.

However, I wouldn't ever breed a doe to a larger buck that is anything over a few ounces bigger than the doe. It's still dangerous.

Emily

That makes sense. Thank you!

 

[wendymac]

The vet told that the babies wouldn't grow larger than the womb. Not sure if it's true or not, but I had friends that had a Rottie male and a Corgi female. The corgi ended up getting bred, and had puppies. They were freaking adorable! All lived, and some were more like a Rot and some more like the Corgi.

 

[LakeCondo]

LakeCondo wrote:

I remember being traumatized as a kid by someone's little dog got knocked up by a larger dog. The poor thing died because the puppies weren't aborted & were too big.

This was back in the Stone Age when people [or at least these people] didn't know better, or how much bigger the male was until it was too late.


Back to rabbits: I can't see any problem with a larger doe having kits with a smaller buck, as long as the size difference isn't so big that they can't "do it,"