Finn tested positive for e.cunniculi

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angieang21

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Finney's test results came in and she tested "highly positive" for e.cungculi. She is currently on Meclizine and Panacur. She'll continue that for two weeks and then we'll go back for another visit.

She hasn't been spinning anymore. She's sneezing less - but still has mucus on her snout. But she's moving around good and there's no sign of head tilt.

The vet mention a nebulizer - but in all honesty - I wasn't even thinking straight to ask more questions.

I've read a few articles but I was wondering if anyone had any feedback or experience with bunnies of their own.

Keep your paws crossed for my baby girl. Thanks.
 
[align=left]Oh no. I'm so sorry that you're going to have to deal with this difficult disease. I'm glad, though, that your vet was able to give you a definitive reason for her illness--sometimes it's hard to diagnose EC.I don't know much about the disease myself, but others on here will likely chime in. Good luck and get well wishes to you and Finn!:pray:[/align]
 
Your rabbit needs to be on the Panacur for at least 28 days. Also have the EC titer redone when you go back. What was the last reading?

Is she having difficulty with breathing? Is that why the vet suggested having nebulizer treatments?
 
Oh *****, I am sorry. I have no EC experience but there are others here who do. I am sure they will respond when they can. Perhaps they can also offer advice on dealing with an EC rabbit in a multi-rabbit household.

Nose pats to Finney Doodle.
 
I've had a rabbit with EC who passed in 2006. Inow have another. She bonded with Sawyer. My vet and I discussed about separating them. We both agreed not to at this point. I have an appointment at the University of Penn to have Smitten evaluated by vets in the Special Species Department. Otherwise she is stable.

I would definitely speak with your vet about all your concerns. I would suggest calling before the next appointment. Let us know what happens.

BTW is Finn bonded with another rabbit?
 
Finn is bonded with Hershey & Bella - they're a trio. I just couldn't see seperating them - she's been through so much and her true happiness is being with her roomates. :tears2: They've been together for almost three years.

I've been writing down some questions for my vet. Like the tier reading and whether it has to be redone.

I understand she has to be on the meds for 28 days - she's been on them for a little of two weeks already.

So I should bring her in before I finish them - or after?


She's really not having problems breathing - she does sneeze occassionally. And she has the mucus on her snout. Could that be why he spoke of a nebulizer?
 
Poor little Finney. I hope that the medication works and she gets to feeling better. I don't have any personal advise to offer, but you'll get lots of great help here.

:hug:
 
If he recommended a nebulizer he most likely felt that the meds in the nebulizer would loosen up and help expel any congestion in her lungs or trachea.
 
Hi,

I have dealt with EC quite a bit. I do have a couple of questions and comments. First, meclizine and panacur don't go together. There is more to what is going on withyour rabbit. Meclizine is a drug used for nausea/vertigo and is the active ingredient in motion sickness drugs like Bonine and Dramamine. It is used in all species to help with vertigo related tovestibular infections/issues but it is not effective in all rabbits. Panacur is a wormer. You mentioned spinning. EC does not cause a rabbit to spin nor does it cause head tilt. EC can't be properly diagnosed only with one titer even though a "high positive" is almost a certainty. It takes a series of titers over a set period of time to get a suggestive diagnosis. Nearly every domestic rabbit will titer positive for EC and nearly all carry it subclinically. The only real confirmation of EC is post mortem...and that is an undesirable situation. Honestly, I diagnose EC based on presentable symptoms which is nearly always some degree of paresis of the left rear leg and some degree of urinary incontenance with a concentrated and crystal filled urine as the protozoan spores shed. A neubilizer is quite effective for respiratory infections/issues and can be used to administer oxygen and/or medications directly into the lungs. Which leads me back to the fact that there is more here than EC.

I am not a vet...but I think your vet has probably missed something here. A bunny that spins usually has an ear infection and even that can be secondary to a dental issue. It is most likely due to an opportunistic bacteria allowed toshow itself due to a compromised immune system caused by the EC. A culture of those ears should be done immediately. Untreated ear infections can cause irreversable head tilt and/or deafness and can migrate to the brain stem....I have one of those here. With a rabbit with active EC, you will be chasing roving bacterial infections since the immune system is so overwhelmed by the EC. If a culture shows no growth and we know by presentation that we have a likely bacterial infection, we assume pasteurella and treat with aggressive antibiotics...baytril and sulfanomides are not considered for treatment in this situation. For years we have assumed most infections in rabbits to be from pasteurella. Couple of problems there.....pasteurella is rapidly becoming resistant to the two drugs I mentioned above and the top exotic vets have stopped using them. Second, we can't reallyassume pasteurella these days as we have seen pathogens recently that we have never seen before in a rabbit....kinda scary. A culture is very important.

If your rabbit does in fact have active EC, you should insist your vet do a complete CBC to use as a base line for future treatment. Pay close attention to and chart renal values. EC will eventually cause the normal neurological issues with the hind quarter....nearly always paresis in the left rear. But what most vets and people don't know and don't respond to is the tremendous damage to the kidneys. Support the kidneys in every way possible. The shedding spores of the EC will pit and scar the kidneys and will start causing a decline in their efficiency. Being able to support the renal system with supplemental fluids, either sub-q or IV, will be essential down the road. Renal failure is imminent in EC rabbits.

Panacur, or any of the "bendazole" family of drugs, is the normal method of treating EC. I have run protocols of more than 60 consecutive days. The effectiveness of this family of drugs has been disappointing overall. This is due mainly to the fact that the drug has an almost impossible task of penetrating the blood/brain barrier. The idea of such a long protocol is nothing more than hoping that some of the drug will get thru. I have been testing a different drug that is used to treat Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM) in horses. It is a similar condition and the protozoa that causes them are closely related. Marquis (Ponazuril) easily penetrates the blood/brain barrier in horses...andhorses and rabbits are treatedalike. So the hope is there. You might ask your vet to check the "VIN" (he/she should have access to this forum) and search for infomation on using Marquis against EC. Our experience here with all the drugs except Marquis is that they are pretty much ineffective. But...we have had much more success in controlling EC by doing everything we can to support the rabbit's immune system....make things as easy for them as possible. Contrary to popular belief, coccidia (also a protozoa like EC) can't be killed by a drug. While the drugs helps, it's the rabbit's own immune system that controls these protozoan monsters.

I know this sounds overwhelming but it is not all gloom and doom. It is quite possible for your rabbit to use it's own immune system, along with your extra TLC and expert medical attention, to put this into remission...I call it "puuting the genie back into the bottle". If you look in our blog, you will read Yoda's story. He fought a long and hard battle against EC...for a couple of years. We gave him lots of extra TLC....we gave him every reason to want to live and to fight....and fight he did. We managed to give him a good life for a very long time after he became almost totally paralyzed in his rear end. We made new protocols and strategies to help him. And on the night we lost him to acute renal failure, he allowed me the ultimate honor and he thanked me for all we did for him. Give your rabbit every reason to want to live and fight.

Feel free to ask any questions. EC is a very misunderstood issue. We have a lot to learn about treating it but things are much better than just a couple of years ago. I have a personal vendetta against EC as it took my precious little girl...the namesake of our rescue...Sabrina. Back then, we didn't know what it was that took her from me after only three years. I know now. Like I said, it's personal between EC and me.

Randy
 
Oh Ang, I'm so sorry! :( I was wondering when you would get the results. Please keep us updated on Finn and the rest of your crew. ♥
 
Thank you all for the good thoughts and input. Randy - I found your post very interesting. The issue with Finn is she is already handicapped She was born with a double rear leg deformity - her right has been removed and the left still remains deformed. She still has her mobility.

When I noticed she was off - she was sitting in one spot and her eye was going back and fort - and she wasn't exactly "spinning" - her head was just following the direction of the eye. She was disoriented. I took her to the ER - they thought an ear infection but my regular vet said he saw no signsof anear infection.

I have to be honest - I usually get so overwhelmed when any of my babies are sick - and I just don't ask enough questions. I really need to know what to ask when I go in there.

Since she's been medicated - I haven't seen any nystagmus (thats what the vets called it) since. She is sneezing and does sound a bit congested - but otherwise you would never know anything was wrong.
 
Randy's posts are always very enlightening !

he's right that spinning and nystagmus doesn't have anything to do with EC. Possibly Finney has a dental issue or some other undetected infection near his ears or nasal cavities that are creating the nystagmus. The sneezing and congestion also are not symptoms of EC.
I think that what Randy is saying is that Finney would benefit fromyour vet learning where the infection is and also treating the EC.
 
Also - my vet is highly known in the House Rabbit community here in NY - Dr. Gil Stanzione. I feel confident that he would know many of the new treatment - but what directly should I ask -

- ear culture

- check dental

- get full tier report



I do know he did test her liver & kidneys and said that they are in excellent condition.

Randy - I appreciate your personal battle with EC - and know that even though you lost Sabrina - you must have helped many bunnies after her with the knowledge she has given you. Quite possibly - my bunny Finn could be added to your list of rabbits lives in which Sabrina has helped you make a difference. Thank you for input - it is greatly appreciated.
 
Good response. The darting eyes is "nystagmus". There is another conditional known as "positional nystagmus" that is an indication of a brain stem infection. The darting eyes are almost always an indication of a vestibular infection. The only other time I have ever seen this is due to head trauma. It is not always possible to "see" an infection. We have had this caused by bacteria such as pasteurella, pseudomonas (a really difficult bug) and staph. And it doesn't have to be bacterial.....it can be yeast. Lops are very prone to yeast infections since the air flow is reduced in those floppy ears....and Hollands even more so due to smaller than normal ear canals. I have many "special needs" here and those with splayed rear legs will always have ear issues since they can clean them by themselves. My wife is a pro at cleaning ears of rear leg issued rabbits. But yeast can happen to any rabbit.

The meclizine sounds like it's working for her....and it also has a sedating effect. I tend to use valium since most of the problems I see now are wildlife...but it would work with domestics. I think I would like to get to the root cause of the problem here. If this were my rabbit....I would do a culture of either the ears or upper respiratory....or both (it might be a bit costly). My direction would be determined by the growth of pathogens. I am always concerned with dental issues when I hear of something like this. Like with us....all the stuff with the ears, nose and throat are connected and can contribute to issues such as this. I would suggest a little more aggressive diagnosis. I would really like to see a skull x-ray paying particular attention to possible molar root impactions. It is also possible to have "molar spurs". My Sabrina has those and she would "cough" (rabbits don't actually cough but it sounds like it), sneeze and blow stuff from her nose all the time. In her case, a lower arcade molar had overgrown and invaded her sinus (again, rabbit's don't technically have a sinus but I use the term since we are all familiar with it's meaning and area of concern).

Personally, in my non-professional opinion, I think the issue with EC might not be as important as finding the real cause of this possible infection. EC might indeed have a secondary hand but something else is going on here. This just brings back memories of Sabrina....and that was back in a time when nobody treated rabbits. I think your situation is going to take some really aggressive investigation.

Randy
 
You know, other than being a little lazy, she's doing fine. I hear her sneezing here and there - but honestly - I'm starting to wonder if they are sneezing. It almost like she's trying to blow her nose? Its pretty warm here today - so she's sitting in front of the fan next to frozen water bottle, resting with her buddies.

I'm calling the vet first thing Monday morning to make another appointment. She will finish her meds by the end of the week - so I want to see what our next step is. I have all intentions of bringing all of Randy's info because I really want him to look into other things.
 

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