ECuniculi

[Rosies_mammy]

Hi Guys,

Sunday morning I discovered my bunny lying lethargic in her hutch with her eyes flicking like mad. We rushed her to the vets and was told it could be either ECuniculi or an ear infection. Later in the day she was circling non stop and seemed drained and dizzy. Last night she weed uncontrollably over me, which is not like her at all.

On reading more info online and comparing the symptoms with Rosies, it sounds very much like the dreaded ECuniculi.

Since Sunday she is much perkier and her eyes have stopped darting (almost completely stopped) but is still off most food except for he odd dandelion leaf (Ive almost picked them all from the garden and this time of year theyre not growing much!)

Does anyone know the survival rates? and I also want to know if anyone has any food ideas which I could tempt her with (most her nutrition is now coming from a syringe-but I hate putting her through this).

Shes still having medication twice a day too, which, by the day seems to be showing improvement. Ive read she will need to take medication for months after,possibly the rest of her life. Is this true?

Im kicking myself. I wish Id have known about this disease before, If I did we wouldnt be going throuh this

 

[Maureen Las]

Did the vet find an ear infection ? Did he take a culture from the ear.? E-cuniculi is often blamed when the problem is really an ear infection that has moved to the middle ear causing the the symtoms of extreme spinning and dizziness for the bun.
often vets will blame e-cuniculi rather than treat aggressively with a combo of antibiotics that would treat the main problem ..an ear infection

One of our members, Randy, who is an experienced wild-life rehabber has stressed to all of us the problem of distinguishing the 2 disorders ..often times symptoms of e-cuniculi emerge with an ear infection as the immune system of the rabbit is weaker.
Many rabbits have e-cuniculi latent (not showing symptoms) in their body which emerge either as the bun ages or if the immune system is stressed.

E-cuniculi is a progressive disease but can be kept in check with some drugs like
Panacur. often rabbits are born with it as their mom passes it on. It is not an unusual problem and the bun can be maintained if one has the knowledge

Your immediate problem is keeping your bun comfortable and eating. She should be kept in a secure area that is padded if she is rolling . Sometimes you can use towels rolled up on either side of the bun if she is falling over. I hope that your vet gave you meds for dizziness like Antivert.

if she is wanting to eat on her own you could try fresh veggies if she has had them previously and her usuall pellets and hay , maybe a few rolled oats, some pure canned pumkin

if you need supplemental recovery food to feed per syringe, I believe there is a product called Supreme Recovery food in canada that is similar to Our oxbow critical care in the states. Someone else will need to give you the specifics

if she is on panacur or a similar drug and she is improving then she probably does have ec. (but she may also have an ear infection) Is her head tilted at all?


many of our forum members have rabbits with this problem and if you stay on the forum you will get a lot of firsthand info on how to care for her in both the acute and chronic stages.
What meds have been prescribed for her?

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Hi thankyou for your reply.

The vet checked her ears but found nothing. The medication she is taking is indeed panacur, twice a day, along with Baytril.

I suspected ECunicili more so because of the symptoms, and the fact that when we firt had her, she used to rock from side to side, but stopped. I presumed this was from a bad past (we know nothing of her past as I found her running free in the street!).

She seems quite comfortable. Her bed is quite padded with lots of shredded paper, though at this point shes not actually rolling, its just her head that slowly falls to the right, then she pulls it up again, then it falls and so on...

I dont know of the recovery food you have over there, but the vet gave me a satchet of powder which you mix with water and is very green and bitty. Im having such trouble getting this out of the syringe as it blocks the nozzle!! Am I doing this right? should I add more water?

Im booked in again on Thursday evening for a check up and more medication, I'll try to get more recovery food then.

Im reading the info from other users- suprised to see how common it is- Id never knew anything about it!

Thanks again

Jules

 

[tonyshuman]

I agree with angieluv that your vet should do a culture to see if there is an ear infection. Can he get a Q-tip down there to try to get something, swab it on a plate, and see if anything grows? EC is a chronic condition that is very hard to recover from, so you want to rule out any other possible illnesses that are more treatable first before assuming it's EC. Also, the first signs of EC are not neurological but usually dragging the hind legs or excessive urination.

best of luck!

 

[Maureen Las]

the gritty food in the package is probably like critical care. I would add more water and make it thinner..you can also take a scissors and cut the top off the nozzle so that it is bigger..just so that it isn'too big. What is the size of the syringe?
Also go get canned pure pumpkin with out any seasoning. it is way easier to syringe than the gritty stuff and it has a lot of fiber in it.
baytril is not a very strong medication ...

it sounds like your vet is doing conventional treatment but keep reading other threads so that you can get better ideas how vets and owners treat both ear infections and ec.

if it is an ear infection it can be treated and cured with strong meds ,..

if it is ec it can be controlled and managed but is far more serious in the long term

the swaying side to side is not really a symptom of ec.

I would post the links in the library but I think that you are already reading them ..

Just get a lot of info together prior toyour vet visit so that you can ask questions
and keep us posted

 

[dquesnel]

Hi, if you haven't already check out this thread and look closely at the post from ra7751 (Randy). http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=40368&forum_id=16&page=2

I think there is info there that can help you, and as angieluv said it is a great idea to collect a list of questions to bring to the vet.

The powder mix you have may need to sit for 10 minutes to absorb the water- it may be thickening inside the syringe. I let critical care or any kind of powder mix sit for the 10 minutes, then I add more water as needed. It is good to do this because if the pellet mix is too dry, the mix may dehydrate the contents of the rabbit's stomach by absorbing more moisture rather than rehydrating.

 

[slavetoabunny]

dquesnel wrote:

The powder mix you have may need to sit for 10 minutes to absorb the water- it may be thickening inside the syringe. I let critical care or any kind of powder mix sit for the 10 minutes, then I add more water as needed. It is good to do this because if the pellet mix is too dry, the mix may dehydrate the contents of the rabbit's stomach by absorbing more moisture rather than rehydrating.

That is the process I take when preparing critical care. It should be the consistency of pancake batter. You may also try flavoring it with a bit of apple juice to make it more palatable. Here in the US we can get banana-apple flavored critical care - the bunnies absolutely love it.

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Thankyou. It would be nice to get some flavoured mix for her, though at the moment I think the stuff I have will do, but will enquire at the vets.

I will also ask about the ear swab, the only test I was offered was a blood test of EC, no swabs mentioned. But again will see what they say.

Her condition is looking better. Ive just settled her for the night and she seemed quite lively again, her eyes appear to have completely stopped flicking. The only signs of illness are the lack of eating and the lack of moving around (I let her out today but she only crawled under the sideboard and sat glum till i put her away again).

If shes showing signs of improvement this quick (brill) does it mean its more likely to be an ear infection? surely EC would be more severe and long term?

Just sorted lots of veggies out so hopefully I can tempt her with them instead of resorting to that syringe! its making us both unhappy


Thanks again x

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Not sure you can buy canned pumpkin in the UK, never seen any. But with it being October theres sure to be lots of fresh ones appearing in the shops in time for halloween. Also, I didnt know rabbits could eat pumpkin??is it more of a treat/ recovery food than an every day type one?:?

 

[Maureen Las]

ECthat is responsive to panacur can do a quick turn around on the drug at least temporarily
if there is any other infection in her body it also could be responding to the baytril/
often the Panacur is used before a blood test is even done because if the panacur does work the assumption is that it is EC

She could have several things going on...
but the fact that she is improving is the important thing

Ididn't know that you couldn't buy canned pumpkin in the UK :?

Are you sure?
here peoplebuy it for pie filling and it's seasoned already for a pumpkin pie

the kind that you would want would have no seasoning just canned pumpkin which is smooth and already cooked
I really don't know how tobake a pumpkin and then use thethe baked pumpkin

The canned pumkin would be used as a treat/recovery food

but someone on this site from the UK will be able to help

 

[tonyshuman]

I've also heard that you can't buy canned pumpkin in the UK. Maybe Brits don't like pumpkin pie?

 

[Rosies_mammy]

I can honestly say Ive never eaten pumpkin pie, and can confirm Ive never seen or indeed heard of canned pumpkin!

Ill have a visit to the grocers and enquire about fresh pumpkin and maybe I can put it in the blender? same thing then isnt it?

Tried her with lots of veg this morning for breakfast and she wouldnt touch the stuff looks like im going to be hunting round the neighbours gardens for dandelion tonight fussy little madam!!

Her energys on the increase too, left her by the back door and she bolted down the passage to find a hidey spot in the veranda...could help but laugh, she didnt look a sick bunny to me.. i wonder if shes doing it all for attention

 

[Little Bay Poo]

Rosies_mammy wrote:

Ill have a visit to the grocers and enquire about fresh pumpkin and maybe I can put it in the blender? same thing then isnt it?

To get pumpkin puree out of a regular pumpkin requires a lengthy baking process. I made a few pumpkin pies from scratch using Jack-o-Lantern pumpkins last year and it took about 3-4 hours to cut into pieces for baking, bake, scoop out the soft centers, and puree in a blender or with a hand mixer. It's really time consuming and I don't do it anymore (just use the canned stuff now). For directions on how to bake a pumpkin I just Googled how to make pumpkin puree and followed the online instructions.

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Thanks bay poo. I dont think I'll bother with the pumpkin puree now. Ive got hold of a jar of carrot & sweetcorn babyfood, and Rosie appears to enjoy it, even if she does look like Yosemite Sam now!!!

She looks so under the weather, I feel so helpless

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Ahhh...look.....no syringe!! The only food she can eat without one..spinach!!

 

[Maureen Las]

Ohh what a cute picture..
spinach has a lot of calcium but it's still good that she's eating it on her own
keep trying different veggies

it's great that she's eating

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

Just happened to dart in for a moment (in between wildlife feedings as usual) and saw this thread. EC is a near and dear "friend" (in a sarcastic manner) around here. I have done extensive research on this condition since I lost my little girl to this monster when nobody knew what it was. I know it well.

First, EC is a protozoan infection. It is usually passed from the mother to her kits at birth but can also be spread by infected urine. Since male rabbits with breeders obviously aren't neutered since they are there to make more rabbits...if one has an active infection, the spores can be spread when he makes his territorial spray. Unkept rabbitries are quite prone to EC issues.

One of the most common misconceptions about EC is that it causes head tilt. It does not. Far too many rabbits have been treated for EC while the primary problem...in the ears...went untreated. There is no doubt that EC can contribute to tilt...but it's contribution is due to the fact that the EC so severely stresses the immune system that opportunistic bacteria can grow unchecked. One of the most opportunistic bacteria is pasteurella multocida which isa primary pathogen in rabbits. Rabbits with true EC infections will have "roving" infections...this time it's the ears, next might be the eyes, then maybe upper respiratory...and so on. You will always be chasing bacterial infections.

EC is a stubborn opponent. It can easily pass thru the blood/brain barrier and cause damage in the brain. The initial signs of active EC are usually a very light stumble....usually from the left rear leg. It is usually so slight that it gets overlooked. You will also see what might appear to be a urinary tract infection. Your rabbit may be urine soaked and the urine will have a very concentrated odor. It is usually quite thick due to the shedding spores. Most vets misdiagnose this condition and assume it to be a urinary tract infection...and in a way, it is. But it can't be treated with conventional antibiotics. EC is a wasting disease. The neurological markers will increase and the kidneys will sustain severe damage in the form of pitting and scarring due to the huge number of spores passing thru. In the end, most rabbits will succumb to renal system failure. As far as treatment, the "bendazoles" are the latest thing. But those drugs have a difficult time penetrating the blood/brain barrier. I have seen little, if any, positive action from Panacur against the numerous cases of EC we have had here. The most promising treatment is a drug called Ponazuril (Marquis) that is used to treat EPM in horses.

I have treated many cases of tilt (technically known as torticollis). In every case except obvious head trauma, a bacterial and/or yeast infection has always been found to be the root cause. It is imperative to get a culture to see exactly what you are fighting in those ears. Just "looking" in there won't do the job. Most vets treat ear infections in rabbits far too conservatively. This is not like a dog or cat. Due to the way a rabbit orients itself...it has to have good inputs from it's ears to know where it stands. The "roving eye syndrome" (nystagmus) is a panicked attempt to figure out his position.

Since I have dealt with this often, here is what I suggest. It is a tough road to properly treat and resolve an ear infection.

>Monitor body temp closely. Ear infections can cause a life threatening hyperthermia. Keep him cool. Learn to do sub-q fluids....one of the best ways to control body temp and the fluids will make him feel better.

>Baytril is far too conservative. Ear infections should be attacked from multiple fronts. My antibiotics of choice for ear infections(which might be a problem for you due to your location) are penicillin orchloramphenicol. Marbofloxacin might be considered. Your vet will know the contraindications of this drug. I have been doing some testing with a drug just approved in the US but seems to have been available in other countries for quite some time....Convenia. The jury is still out on using this drug in rabbit but so far, so good. We have lost one wild rabbit and one domestic that was on Convenia...but the loss was not due to the drug. I also use an ear drop (Baytril Otic) that contains both enrofloxacin and silver sulfadiazine.

>Pain meds are essential. I usually use 3 days of NSAIDs. It is very important to supplement hydration when using NSAIDs in order to protect the liver and kidneys. Severe pain can be managed by narcotics....I prefer either Buprenorphine or Tramadol.

>Being dizzy all the time is quite stressful. This stress can be relieved by sedatives such as Valium.

>Meclizine (the active ingredient in motion sickness drugs) can be of help in some rabbits. Some respond well to it....some it doesn't help at all.

I would urge you to speak to your vet about stepping up the attack and concentrate on those ears. If the infection gets out of hand, it goes to the brain stem. We have a rabbit like that here right now. Her owners didn't follow thru with proper treatment. By the time she made it her, the damage was done and she will have to live with her neurological issues for the rest of her life. Good luck.

Randy

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Thanks Randy,

I am concerned about the comments that Baytril isnt strong enough, and will bring this up with the vet later.

Something appears to be havingan affect though ( maybe its the panacur?) but she seems to be progressing, slowy. Got her out last night and she was running in circles then needing a lie down, so not out the woods yet.



Valiums out of the question, its illegal in the UK :?



No problems with keeping her cool, she seems to be fine in this area.

Will try to pick out these points and bring them up later, though I'll no doubt be told not to believe anything I read on the net, as Ive been told before but its worth a go

 

[Rosies_mammy]

Ok, not sure if anyones still reading this but I'll write anyway in the hope someone is.

Ive just returned from the vets with Rosie, and feel a bit p'd off to be honest, cos I feel like Ive been fobbed off.

The vet seemed in a hurry to get me over and done with, and asked me what Id come for!!! as in like 'what do you want me to do?'
She checked Rosie over, and said the symptoms sound like ecuniculi more than the ear infection, and that I need to keep giving her the panacur.

Apart from this I was just told to make sure she keeps eating and drinking and was told, *with a scrunched up-bad newsy type face* that it could be something like a tumour and theres little I can do about it- or the damage could be too bad to be reversed.

She gave Rosie an anti inflammatory jab and i think she said something about a jab to 'boost her appitite?' (Rosies still not eating) Im to buy the panacur from a pet supermarket by me- but there was no clear indication on how long she should be on it, and I was given no more antibiotic either.

Was hurried off out and charged £8 for the whole thing. Have Rosie and I been fobbed off? what more can I do? I feel like theyre just treating Rosie as a lost cause, as if its too much hassle to treat her.
Bit silly really considering the amount of money they make!

Do any sensible, real bunny lovers have any ideas? Im not giving up on her, even if they do

 

[Little Bay Poo]

I don't have any experience with vets so its hard to say...but that sounds pretty bad. I know when Chris took Ronnie into the vets for head tilt the appointment was an hour and a half long and he came back with 4 different kinds of medicines. So by comparison, your vet does seem sub-par :?

Hopefully someone will come along who knows more about this.