Ear infections

[bunnymommy76]

I just was writing to see if anyone had any advice or experienced similar with their bunny. My boy Pidge has been dealing with a infection in his left ear for over a month, he started out on baytril and that did nothing. We did multiple deep ear cleanings where they sedate him and flush his ear out real good. We finally decided to do a culture to see what was going on, the culture obviously showed that he was resistant to the baytril and that he had a staf and strep infection in his ear. The doctor just changed his meds to bactrim a week ago. My question is this, Im still seeing Pus in there, shouldnt the medicine been working by now? Is there something else that he should be on? The doctor is now talking about surgery to open something up inside( Im really not clear on what they want to do)because it seems that pidge has a real narrow ear canal? Is this necessary, hes getting up there in age I really dont want him to go through any more surgery. Isn't there something else that could clear this up?

julie and pidgey

 

[ra7751]

Hi Julie,

Ear infections are one of "my things". This is yet another example of Baytril resistant bacteria. Is it possible you could get a copy of the lab report and e-mail to me? I will provide you with my rescue e-mail account. I would like to know the precise strains of the pathogen and what the sensitivites were. I suspect that the sulfa drugs are not going to work so well. I rarely use Baytril and when I do, it's a mop up treatment...never front line. The only times I use a sulfanomide is with fluid ingestion into the lungs (most of the time on cottontails that have been in a heavy rain or someone tried to hand feed), some skin infections (most of them are staph related) and as a support therapy when using steroids. One suggestion....get some eye drops....just the basic drops with no meds. I prefer the gel type products. The sulfanomides tend to dry out the eyes and the drops will make things a bit more comfortable.

Do remember here that I am not a vet....but I do have the support of numerous teaching professors (nice to live near a major vet school). My experience is that vets tend to be far too conservative on attacking ear infections. That is from the old and incorrect notion that all antibiotics are harmful to rabbits. And yes, there are risks involved so the the key is to determine if the benefits outweigh the risks. I treat ear infections from multiple fronts with drugs that work in a different fashion....a "cocktail" if you will. Determining what drugs to use are directly related to the exact strain of bacterium and the sensitivities. I have successfully used drugs, under the watchful eye of my vets, that are not generally considered for rabbits. But they work and are safe when used properly.

I also try to avoid surgery if at all possible. The idea behind the surgery is similar to what is done in a human child's ear when they have recurring infections. It is a difficult surgery with questionable results.

Since it appears that Pidge is a Holland....they do tend to have very tiny ear canals and when that is combined with the lop ears, it does restrict fresh air circulation. Since it is already warm and moist in there...and he probably has a bit of a fever....that is prime breeding grounds for bacteria and yeast. If you can do so without stressing him too much....try to pin his ears into an "up" position. And it might help to have a fan circulate some air near him to try to cut down the heat and bacteria growth inside the ear canal.

Did your doctor give you any medicated ear drops? While I don't want to mention any other drugs pending seeing what is in the lab....I usually use Baytril Otic drops...it's a combination of Baytril and Silvadine. It needs to get down deep into the ear...just dropping it in the upper flaps isn't going to do it...it needs to get deep.

I will be looking for your response....I think my e-mail address is in my profile but if not, post here or send me a PM and I will give it to you. This needs to be treated very aggressively.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

Hi Randy!

Pidge was on bayril otic for his right ear and it cleared it right up, and has been clear since, now he got it in the left. I asked the vet if we should be using the baytril otic for the left one too since there was success with the right and we were told because he is now resistant to the baytril the baytril otic won't work either?? He is on no ear drops at the time just the oral bactrim. He was on drops that consisted of a mixture of baytril,meloxicam, and saline solution, but has been taken off of that too. We have been cleaning his ear twice a day with Epi-otic, it helps to a point. Its just hard to get anything down in his ear when the pus is blocking drainage into the ear, eveything sits there like a little puddle, and then of course he shakes his head and it all flies out anyway. I am just so frustrated, his abcess is finally doing very well, I just wish this ear would get cleared up. I am taking his back to the vet Saturday, I will see if I can get a copy of the culture results.

thanks,

julie

 

[naturestee]

What vet do you go to? I've heard a lot of good comments on the bunny people at the Midwest Bird and Exotic Animal Hospital. Here's their contact info:

[font="Arial,Helvetica"]7510 W. North Ave[/font]
[font="Arial,Helvetica"]Elmwood Park, IL 60707[/font]
[font="Arial,Helvetica"]Phone: (708) 453-8181[/font]
[font="Arial,Helvetica"]Fax: (708) 453-8194[/font]
http://www.midwestexotichospital.com

I agree with Randy that little Pidge needs more aggressive treatment. I'm surprised they're only doing oral antibiotics for a resistant infection. You should also ask a vet to show you how to safely get the pus out of his ear so the cleaning treatment helps more.

Randy, is this likely to be restricted to the ear canal? I'm concerned about the amount of pus Julie is seeing. If it has become an abscess it could spread. Would this be seen on an xray, or how should it be checked out?

*Vibes for Pidge*

 

[bunnymommy76]

Thanks for the info, I am taking him to Midwest Bird and Exotic animal hospital. Its an hour drive for me but they are the best in the area! I just wish that there was something else that I could be doing for him and Yes, why so much pus all the time? Like I said, i will be taking him back saturday, Im going to have to ask some other questions.

thanks

julie

 

[ra7751]

Hi Julie,

You just brought in a whole new set of issues. What type of abscess? I think this caught Naturestee's attention the same as it did mine. That little piece of information brings on more talk. And I would really like to see some rads of the skull....an older flat faced bunny with an abscess and a vestbular infection.....I am hearing all sorts of alarms going off in my head. If this is what it sounds like to me....this infection will laugh at Baytril and Bactrim.

Epi-Otic is an excellent flush. But if the vet has that, they probably carry Cerulytic. This particular flush is not something I would do every day...but if you can get some of this, maybe every other day or so.

I am walking a fine line on this one...but anyway. I really feel this treatment needs to be stepped up....a couple of steps. And again, I must remind you that I am not a vet. But ask your vet about using an ear drop called Tresaderm. This is an excellent medication. But as with all drugs, there can be side effects. This drug is effective against staph. But, it also contains a steroid. That can be good and bad. Your vet is in the best position to offer an opinion on using that drug. I have used it in some situations...but it is not appropriate in every situation. And if your vet should prescribe this drug...many times they forget that most people have never used this drug. It does require refrigeration. And you should allow it to warm up a bit before using it and then back to the fridge.

And just in case....do you have a problem injecting meds with a syringe? I routinely use two other antibiotics as well as the vestibular drops....all at once.

And in addition to keeping the eyes lubricated while he is on Bactrim, do you have any probiotics? With the antibiotics he is most likely going to need (and probably wouldn't hurt now) his gut is going to need some support. I have found probiotics that contain Lactobacillus Casei do an excellent job. I use a product called Bene-Bac for that duty.

Keep us posted on what is happening.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

pidge had surgery december 5th for a jaw abcess. It is looking much better than it was and pus finally has stoped coming out of the surgery site, but I am still flushing him out twice a day with derma-chlor. He was never actually given anything to treat the abcess itself, they just put him on the baytril and now the bactrim and I guess hoped it would help both. I have never given an injection before but I hear that Pen G is good! I have also bought some pro-biotics online, but once I recieved it, it gave dosing for a human so I never really knew how much to give him. I have acidophilus, with bifidus, is this okay? and how much do I give him, its a chewable tablet.

julie

 

[ra7751]

Hi Julie,

I suspect the jaw abscess and the vestibular issue is related. Treatment really needs to be stepped up here. When I see multiple infections like this....it makes my brain start to work really hard.

As far as probiotics, any vet clinic should have Bene-Bac for mammals (available for birds too). It has millions of colony forming bacteria in a very pleasant tasting paste. While it doesn't put in the exact bacteria needed, the strains contained in this product do help create a stable and favorable environment for the growth of good bacteria. Most vets carry it ina large syringe. It is also used by horse people. It can be purchased online at many suppliers. If you have a large pet store near you....you can usually find Bene-Bac in the cat section in small tubes known as "one shots". For most rabbits, feed them about a gram per day....a little more for larger rabbits. While acidolphilus is good....the L Casei strain is much better. And regardless of what anyone may suggest that is reading this thread....do not offer yogurt instead. Old stuff...bad idea. Here is a link with one of the best prices I have found for this product....it's a chinchilla site (rabbits and chins are very similar in medical treatments and digestive systems). http://www.chinworld.com/sitemap/prods/CW070010.html

The jaw abscess really concerns me. That type of infection, if not handled quickly, can damage the bone and can result in additional issues. Not flaming your vet here...but have you considered maybe a second opinion on treatment options? Just a thought. Never hurts to have options.

Randy

 

[naturestee]

Hm, and I've heard so much good about that place! I suppose it depends on the vet. The vet here who does my foster bun's dental work used to work there, so far she's been really good. And better on the antibiotics.

So, for the jaw abscess your vet did surgery, had you flush it regularly, and nothing else? Not even an antibiotic bead in the wound?:?

If you can get to a feed store, or maybe Fleet Farm, you should be able to find large tubes of BeneBac for horses. It's the same stuff. Or you can get a large dial-a-dose tube from the vet, like Randy suggested. In a pinch, you can get it from pet stores but it's in tiny packages and more expensive.

Along with better antibiotics, I'd insist on xrays of the head. I don't want to scare you but I have a bad feeling the abscess and ear infection are connected.

 

[bunnymommy76]

I really dont know, we asked that question and was told that they were not related. We were told that he did not have pasturella or anything like that. At the last vet visit, which wasthis pastfriday, we were told that the abcess(surgery site) was looking real well. As for his ears, he has had problems with his ears his whole life, this isnt something newthat just started to occur when he got the abcess. I really dont understand whats going on with his ears or why they are treating him the way they are. There really isnt anywhere else I can take him because all the local vets around here send you to Midwest Exotic when an issue like this occurs because they do have the expertise that these other vets don't have.

I really dont know, I'm torn, I want to trust that his doctor knows whats best for him, but at the same time, Im reading other articles and being told that his treatment needs to be more aggressive, how do I approach his doctor about that without making them feel like they dont know what they are doing? Im confused!

julie

 

[bunnymommy76]

Just a little update on Pidge!

I bought the Cerulytic online for his ear (Randy's recomendation)and have been using that every 3 days or so, I also stopped all the ear flushing, against my vets recomendation, but like randy said its the perfect breeding ground for more bacteria, warm and moist. It makes sense to me. I don't know if it is the Cerulytic or because I stopped flushing his ear and it gave the antibiotic a chance to dry the bacteria up, but let me tell you his ear looks the best it has in months!!!!! I haven't seen any pus in 5 days, this is wonderful!!! His surgery site from the abcess is closing up nicely, no pus there either, I also got confirmation that the little bump under the surgery site is indeed just scar tissue. It looks like Pidge is finally on the road to recovery! I am so relieved this has all been going on since the week before Thanksgiving! He's a happy little guy again, he's even playing again with his baskets and boxes, making a big mess for mommy to clean up!! LOL

He goes back to the vet saturday the 16th, hopefully he will be given the all clear!

Thanks for everyone's advice you were all wonderful, esp. Randy!

julie and pidgey

 

[ra7751]

Hi Julie,

I am so happy that Pidge is doing better. That Cerulytic is some really good stuff when used at the right time. Stay on top of this as ear infections and abscesses are something that tend to be like comets...they come around regularly once they happen. Always be on guard....and while this is technically against my usual "follow sound medical advice"...but if this recurs regularly, you will learn the early signs and can launch a pre-emptive strike before it happens. Rules are made to be broken...sometimes anyway.

And it sounds like he is enjoying life again...that would be one mess I would enjoy watching him make and cleaning it up. You did a great job with him.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

OKay, soo this didn't last long!!! I said in my last post that pidgey's ear was looking good for about a week, pus free. We go to the vet saturday and he gets the "all clear", He was taken off the bactrim and I was told that the abcess was healing nicely, just to come back in a month. Monday I noticed that the pus is back in his ear again, and he's sneezing and coughing again. This is how this whole thing began, I guess the bactrim may have controled it but it didnt get rid of it, because all the symptoms are back again!!!!!

I am taking him to a different vet tomorrow to get another opinion,I have been messing with this for 2 months, I am so frustrated, needless to say sois he!

I definetly think that he needs something stronger, any suggestions I should bring up to the new vet tomorrow? is the Penn G still an option?



Julie & Pidge

 

[ra7751]

Hi Julie,

I would really suggest going to the expense of getting a culture and sensitivity done. There is really not a stronger antibiotic per se...antibiotics are targeted. Some are very good at controlling certain bacteria. Zithromax is very good with pasteurella....bactrim is good with staph.....metronidazole is good with clostridium. There are many "broad spectrum" drugs that can control many bacteria. As I have mentioned in my previous posts....the abscess brings on an entirely new set of problems. Abscesses usually contain anaerobic bacteria in the core of the infection....not only it is very difficult for drugs to penetrate to the core, the bacteria that usually are found there just laugh at drugs like bactrim and baytril. I was really surprised when you said the abscess was clearing up and he was on bactrim.

With an abscess, I usually doa needle aspiration into the core of the infection. Amazing what stuff can be found there. With a culture and sensitivity....this will tell exactly what the bacteria is and what to use to control it...and it will most likely put this issue to rest. Pen G is a very attractive option and can be used in conjunction with certain other drugs...and together they pack a powerful punch. Just a warning....improper administration of Pen G will likely result in death. It is very important to make the correct dosing in the correct manner. This drug is not safe when given by mouth. It is also important to get the right form of the drug as there are many different formulas available. I would really get a culture done to see exactly what you are dealing with before trying other treatements.

Randy