Coughing? (Resolved)

[Amy27]

I am glad you got the Zithromax for Nick. I understand how you feel about your vet. My old vet use to be like that. It made me question her when she didn't sound confident in what she was saying. I am going to her because I expected her to know what she talking about.

Keep us updated on how Nick does on the Zithromax. Does the vet think the coughing was from the fluid in the front of the lungs?

 

[BethM]

tonyshuman wrote:

Whew. At least it's mostly in the front of the lungs andyou got some zithromax. It's too bad your vet isn't too confident in himself treating rabbits. It would also worry me a bit. Hopefully he can learn more and be more confident in his skills.

Yeah. It seems like he just needs more experience. Also, he seems to be fine working with the animals, just not so much when it comes to talking with the people. He may have just been uncomfortable with someone asking for something specific.

I may be completely misjudging him. I do really like him, and he seems competent. I mentioned before, he was VERY good when Nick had stasis, and not hesitant at all on the treatment. Nick got pain meds, subq fluids, and an x-ray.

 

[BethM]

Amy27 wrote:

I am glad you got the Zithromax for Nick. I understand how you feel about your vet. My old vet use to be like that. It made me question her when she didn't sound confident in what she was saying. I am going to her because I expected her to know what she talking about.

Keep us updated on how Nick does on the Zithromax. Does the vet think the coughing was from the fluid in the front of the lungs?

Thanks, Amy.

The vet thought this might be pasturella, not completely cured by the Baytril. He thought that a longer Baytril treatment might help.
I talked about how Nick seems to be worse when we're getting the up and down weather patterns. He was really bad on Friday, when we had a huge storm system move in. (The change in barometric pressure actually made me feel slightly dizzy for several hours, starting right before the storm hit.) He seemed to agree that the weather might cause stress that could aggravate symptoms.

He did say that he can't be sure, without doing a culture, what it was. The fur around Nick's nose looks like it had been wet earlier today, but it wasn't wet while I was at the vet. He offered to to an x-ray, but we opted out. (If Nick were to get worse, we would go ahead with that.)

It seems like the doctor is more confident about rabbits that are presenting more severe symptoms? Maybe he's more unsure about less severe problems. He also started to seem less sure/slightly defensive as soon as I started to ask about specific meds. Overall, though, I am not UNhappy with him.

 

[BethM]

We got home from the vet at 7:30. I gave Nick his first dose of zithromax. After I released him, he ran straight for the top level of his condo, and hasn't come down since. :nerves1 Amelia has gone up a couple times to check on him, but is otherwise going about her business.

The vet said 1cc, so that's what I gave. Should I be looking for any particular side effects?

I am hoping he is just angry at me. He's the kind of bunny who will refuse all treats after a nail trim, but I'm worried that, in 3 hours, he hasn't come down for hay/water/litter box.

 

[Maureen Las]

It is good that you got the zithromax although it can affect appetite. I used it on one of mine and she continued to eat but probably a little less than normal.

it is not unusual for them to want to give baytril again. Randy is SO right that so many doctors are SO uncomfortable trying anything else .

Was the other drug Ciprofloxicin ?
can you figure out how many mg the doctor wants to give daily or at least how many mg in a ml

My vet here wouldn't give me a strong enough dose so I am just curious

 

[BethM]

angieluv wrote:

It is good that you got the zithromax although it can affect appetite. I used it on one of mine and she continued to eat but probably a little less than normal.

it is not unusual for them to want to give baytril again. Randy is SO right that so many doctors are SO uncomfortable trying anything else .

Was the other drug Ciprofloxicin ?
can you figure out how many mg the doctor wants to give daily or at least how many mg in a ml

My vet here wouldn't give me a strong enough dose so I am just curious

I just know that the bottle says 2.5% solution (they ground and mixed the tablets for me), and I'm supposed to give 1 cc. I'm not smart enough to figure out the mg's. :?
Nick weighs 4 pounds, 9.5 ounces.

The other drug mentioned did start with a c or s, but I don't think it was Cipro. It was 2 or 3 syllables, I think, but I wasn't sure if it was a trade or generic name. (I was trying to remember it, but my husband launched into some thing about how he was confused by the generic "azrithromycin," as Zithromax was new when he worked in a pharmacy, years ago. He kept going on and on about it. Grr.)

I left a timothy hay cube up there , but he hasn't touched it. The cubes are old, so I will probably take it out before I go to bed, and replace it with a handful of their usual hay. I tried to tempt him with a sprig of parsley. At first, he turned away from it. I tapped him on the forehead with it until he decided to punish it by taking a few bites. Then he stopped eating, though, and started digging on the rug that's up there. Truly angry.

He keeps shifting positions. He'll stretch out frog-style for 5 or 10 minutes. Then sit up tall. Then loaf. Right now, he's sort of a stretched-out loaf, with his eyes half closed. (Frog-style is his normal preferred position.) His nose keeps stopping moving, as though he's trying to nap.

I want to stay up with him, but maybe he's not coming down because I'm in the room? Will set the alarm to get up and check on him a few times in the night.

 

[Maureen Las]

There is not enough info to figure out the mg anyway ; I gave an oral suspension and not the tablets.

Sometimes when a rabbit starts an antibiotic there is a period of time when the rabbit will feel worse because the bacteria are dying .

You may have to try to encourage him to eat and drink for a few days butI would give this medication a good try.
I know you'll keep us updated

 

[BethM]

Last night, I got really excited that Nick ran down and over to me when it was bedtime treat time. I only offered him a small piece of dried papaya (he usually gets papaya, and a raisin as well). He sniffed it, then ran back into the condo without eating it. I left it in there, and it is gone this morning. (Amelia doesn't like them.) I also put an extra hay rack up there, but I can't tell if he ate any of it. Forgot to take the hay cube out, and someone ate half of that, but it could have been Amelia.

I got up at 2:30 to check on him. He was in the same spot as he was when I went to bed, just facing the opposite direction. Amelia was snuggled up to him.
He seemed ok, so I went back to bed.

Got up early (5:30 instead of 6:15). The were still up there. When I opened the gate, Nick ran out and into the Cottontail Cottage, and spent 10 minutes or so tearing up cardboard, then ran back to the top floor of his condo. I didn't want to overload him with sugar, so I only offered him a tiny taste of his morning banana, which he took from me, then turned his back on me to eat it.

I tried to offer him some veggies, but he rubbed his nose all over them and then went into the corner, hunched up, and thumped at me. Then Amelia came over, lay down next to him, and ate his veggies. :grumpy:

Can't tell if he's had any water. There is a pile of very small poops in the litter box that might be his.

I wonder if he also maybe feels betrayed. He's always been the kind of bunny that just doesn't want to be touched/petted. We've had them over 2 years, and he still won't let Jason touch him. In the last few months, though, he's been allowing me to put him for short periods of time, sometimes even presenting when I would do it. For most of the vet visit yesterday, when he was up on the table, he spent most of the time with his head buried up against me. Now, when he sees me coming, he thumps and tries to hunch up in the corner.

I feel so awful, he was running around so joyfully through the weekend.

Trying to decide if I want to try to get some pedialyte into him (if I have some). Doing that might make him more upset, then he really won't be eating today. On the other hand, I don't know if he's had any water all night.

 

[BethM]

I decided to go ahead and syringe some fluids, just to make sure he's . I had a bottle of unflavored pedialyte in the rabbit medical box, so I gave him some of that, mixed about half with plain water. Not sure how much he actually drank, as he let a lot of it just run out of his mouth as I was squirting it in. I think I filled the 3cc syringe 5 times, but at least half of it ended up on the floor.

If nothing else, it did get him out and moving a little bit. Had to chase him around the apartment with the towel for 5 minutes, he's an expert at evading capture.

Hopefully he will be fine through the day.
Wish I had one of those webcams, so I could watch him from work.

 

[Maureen Las]

Ithink that it was good to syringe pedialyte ; if he is not eating tonight and you try different thingsI might syringe him food as it's possible that the zithromax is affecting his appetite in combination with not feeling 100% and also being upset with you. I know that you will try tasty foods before you syringe anything.
is he coughing?

 

[BethM]

angieluv wrote:

Ithink that it was good to syringe pedialyte ; if he is not eating tonight and you try different thingsI might syringe him food as it's possible that the zithromax is affecting his appetite in combination with not feeling 100% and also being upset with you. I know that you will try tasty foods before you syringe anything.
is he coughing?

I have not heard him cough since Friday. But that doesn't mean he isn't doing it at night, or when I'm not around.

Nick did not seem interested in coming out of the condo for salad this morning. I put a handful in the condo near him, though I suspect greedy Amelia might eat it. (I have thought about seperating them, so I can monitor his eating, but at this point he seems to be comforted when she is snuggling with him.)

I will offer pellets tonight at the normal time, and if he doesn't seem interested, I will try syringing food. I've got some assorted baby food vegetable in my first aid box, carrots, squash, as well as some canned pumpkin, that I can try. Last time I needed to syringe food, he didn't seem to like anything I tried.

I have a tube of NutriCal in my fridge from the last time he was sick, if it comes to that. Does that go bad, and should I get a brand new tube, or can I use the old stuff? Not sure if it's been opened or not. Also, should I pick up some BeneBac? If so, should I get the powder or tube? "Regular" or "Small Mammal"?

Sorry for all the questions. I am terribly worried about my Nick.

 

[Maureen Las]

if you know he likes the benebac gel then get that but my buns despise the gel ; I usually buy the powder for small mammals and manage to get the powder and mix it with banana

I would say that if the nutrical has been refrigerated it is probably fine but you will have to let it sit out because it will be hard..

make sure that you have pedialyte also

and you can also make a pellet slurry for syringe feeding if you don't have critical care.
maybe mix some of that with the pure pumpkin ; very messy to serve.
he should be eating on his own in a few days ..

if he is eating but not as much I would not syringe feed him but wait a day and see.
like I said my girl ate but she ate a little less than normal but did OK on the med.

 

[BethM]

Ok, thank you.

I have not tried the BeneBac before, I didn't learn about that until after he had come out of stasis. Will keep it in mind, and add it to my shopping list to add to the first aid box.

Just opened a big bottle of pedialyte this morning, so I've got plenty of that. Again, since I opened it, it's now on my list to replace.

I don't have any critical care, I don't think I can buy it locally.

I will give him an hour or so after pellets are put out to see if he eats on his own. (He usually eats first, chasing Amelia away until he's had some.) If not, I will try making a pellet slurry, and mix in some pumpkin. Last time I had to syringe feed, Nick managed to spit just about everything out. Pellet slurry, canned pumpkin, baby food squash, all over my floor! I tried mashing it into the fur on his front paws, so he'd have to clean it off, but he somehow managed to shake most of it off. Because he did take his tiny banana bite this morning, I may try to add just a touch of banana to make it more attractive. Not too much, don't want a sugar overload.

 

[tonyshuman]

I think Bene-Bac would be a good thing, same for the Nutri-Cal. My guys love the dog Bene-Bac gel. I have heard that the small animal one is the same thing but more expensive. Nutri-cal should get his appetite going, and Bene-Bac can make his tummy more comfortable. Good luck...

 

[BethM]

Ok, next question.

I got home from work at about 5, and put the pellets out. Nick was napping in his house, but as soon as he saw me, he ran up to the top floor of the condo and started thumping at me.

I went out to find some BeneBac. (The PetCo near me doesn't have it. The PetSmart that's a few miles away had it, it was on clearance and I got the last two packs of the gel. No powder.)

It is now almost 7, and I will be giving the next dose of zithromax. It does not look like Nick has eaten any pellets. About a quarter of the salad was left on the floor from this morning, as well. I am about to mix up some pellet slurry.

Should I try to feed him at the same time as I give him the meds? I hate to catch him twice in one night, it stresses him out so much. Meds first, then food?

*sigh* My nerves are shot.

 

[tonyshuman]

I don't see why not to feed at the same time that you give meds.

 

[BethM]

tonyshuman wrote:

I don't see why not to feed at the same time that you give meds.

I was able to get him to take a fair amount of pellet-and-pumpkin slurry. Also the meds.

Will save the BeneBac for tomorrow morning.

Will also try to give him some more greens this evening.

 

[Maureen Las]

Because of the effect of the antibiotic on the bacteria he may not have much of an appetite for a few days and/ or the zithromax is decreasing it.
if you can keep up the feedings for a few days to see if this resolves itself it would be good...
if the Zithromax decreases his appetite altogether after a few days , however, you may have to go with another med...
but just put that on the back burner for now...

 

[Amy27]

Beth, I don't have any advice, it sounds like you are doing an amazing job taking care of Nick. I just wanted you to know that I am thinking about you and Nick and hope Nick starts eating and getting better soon. Keep us posted.

 

[BethM]

Amy, thank you so much!

Last night, I did see Nick use the litter box. The poops were about half normal size, and very moist. So, it looks like he's not been eating much, if any, hay, but at least he's got some movement going on in there.

Before bed, I managed to trick him into eating a few veggies. He was hiding in his house, so I just kept holding the food in there and sort of waving it around. At first, he tried to grab it and toss it out, but I kept putting it back in. I guess he decided that the best way to get rid of it was to just eat it. I got him to eat one med. parsley stalk, about 5 pieces of cilantro, and half a leaf of Romaine.
(Amelia got really angry, because I wouldn't let her eat the veggies. So she wiped her nose on my bare feet, then proceeded to dig on them. Ouch!)

I didn't see any new poops this morning.

Got up early again. Nick refused his tiny piece of banana. I got Nick to take some Bene-Bac gel. Wasn't sure how much to give, but I think I used most of the tube. Some ended up on the floor. Syringed pedialyte again. Same as yesterday, I used 15cc's total, but 3/4 to 1/2 of that was spit out on the floor. Then I smeared a pea-sized lump of Nutri-Cal on the top of his paw, which he really got upset about. He's grooming himself right now, so at least he will get some calories.

Nick keeps trying to find new places to hide and watch out for me.