Colors of Englishs

[BSAR]

My sister and I are planning on breeding Minnesota (our black English Lop) to Mississippi (our broken blue EL) together in November.

I was just wondering what the chances were of us getting a broken or full colored creme (like Abbie {sp}) was? Or would we just get blues, blacks and what else could we get?

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Genetics, genetics. Ahh, I love this subject. I believe back when you got your doe I your sister and I tried to work this out. I believe it pretty much came up that all you would get is blacks and broken blacks with slight possibility of shadeds(tort, sable point) and/or blues. If you can tell me the colors of both rabbit's parents and grandparents in proper order again I can tell you.

buck - sire - dam - sire of sire - dam of sire - sire of dam - dam of dam

dam- sire - dam - sire of sire - dam of sire - sire of dam - dam of dam

Something like that would tell me more,you can not tell what will come of the two just by their colors. Well... for the most part.

 

[BSAR]

Alright I will post that later today.

 

[JadeIcing]

I am really intrested in this thread. So don't forget to post!

 

[BSAR]

I'm posting right now!! haha.

Ok I will post this in the best way that I can so you all understand also.

So first I will do Sippi's pedigree.

Okay here are Sippi's stats.

Mississippi is a Broken Blue

Dad: Broken Sable Point- His parents--- Mom: Tort-Black Dad: Broken Tort-Blue

Momma: Broken Black- Her parents---- Mom: Broken Black Dad: Blue

That's the farthest Im gonna go but I will say that the great grandbunnies have broken black, frosted pearl-blue, lynx, frosted pearl, black, tortise, broken chesnut agouti, and another black tort.

Now Minnie

Minnesota is Black

Dad: Broken Black- His parents----Mom: Broken Opal Dad: Broken Sable Point

Momma: Sable Point- Her parents----Mom: Seal Dad: Broken Black

And the grandbunnies varieties are: Tort black, Broken seal, broken chestnut agouti, steel blue, black, broken sable point, broken sable point, and blue.

Sounds like we have a good chance of getting sables, broken and solid. I would love that color!

 

[bunnybunbunb]

100% chance of shaded (tort/sable point) and black. As for Blue possibly but seeing as it is a grandparent in the doe being dilute it is a bit slim chance however all the babies will carry it. As for sable I would say it is slim because most sable points are from the c gene not the cchl(I believe it is that one, can't exactly remember ) however I am not very on the up with sable.

 

[BSAR]

What does shaded (tort, sable point) look like?

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Shaded is a color type, basicly the colors in shaded needs the shaded gene which is need for quite a few colors including tortioseshell, sable point, orange, fawn, frosted pearl,etc. You should get brokens but I have run into a few broken rabbits that never gave broken babies :X

 

[TinysMom]

BSAR wrote:

What does shaded (tort, sable point) look like?

In lionheads:

Tort

Sable Point

 

[BSAR]

Thanks Tinysmom.

I personally don't like Torts. Even though I have had some babies that were torts. I just think they are ugly.

Sables now them I love!! Beautiful!! those are some colors i want.

 

[TinysMom]

BSAR wrote:

I'm posting right now!! haha.

Ok I will post this in the best way that I can so you all understand also.

So first I will do Sippi's pedigree.

Okay here are Sippi's stats.

Mississippi is a Broken Blue

Dad: Broken Sable Point- His parents--- Mom: Tort-Black Dad: Broken Tort-Blue

Momma: Broken Black- Her parents---- Mom: Broken Black Dad: Blue

That's the farthest Im gonna go but I will say that the great grandbunnies have broken black, frosted pearl-blue, lynx, frosted pearl, black, tortise, broken chesnut agouti, and another black tort.

Now Minnie

Minnesota is Black

Dad: Broken Black- His parents----Mom: Broken Opal Dad: Broken Sable Point

Momma: Sable Point- Her parents----Mom: Seal Dad: Broken Black

And the grandbunnies varieties are: Tort black, Broken seal, broken chestnut agouti, steel blue, black, broken sable point, broken sable point, and blue.

Sounds like we have a good chance of getting sables, broken and solid. I would love that color!

I hope I can explain this so it can be understood easily. I'll even try to make it short (ha ha).

There are five genes that are frequently discussed when it comes to genetics. The "A" gene determines the family (agouti, self, etc). The "B" gene is if the rabbit is black or brown. The "C" gene I'm not even going to go into here - its much more complicated. The "D" gene is the dilute gene. This is what makes a rabbit black or blue or chocolate or lilac.

The gene you're going to be looking for is the "E" gene - which is where you get the shaded family.

Now from my understanding - in order to be a shaded - the rabbit must be "ee" - vs. "Ee" or "EE". Basically - it must have the recessive gene of the "e" gene.

We know that Sippi carries at least one "e" gene. This comes from dad who is a sable point.

We know that Minnie carries an "e" gene from her mom.

I wish I could do a good chart on here...but basically ...oh well..just follow this link:

http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/punnettsquaresbasic.php

I want to use a Punnet square to show what your chances are of having shaded rabbits.

I'm going to assume that each of your rabbits has "Ee" for their E genetics...mom is across the top - dad is down the side. Each square is getting one gene from mama and one gene from daddy.


E e


E EE Ee



e Ee ee



This shows you that each baby has a 1 in 4 chance of being shaded. However, it has a 3 in 4 chance of being nonshaded (most likely black since I didn't notice any dilute in Minnie's lines).

Clear as mud...right?

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Nicely explained Peg. However Opal is dilute so there is a slight chance the doe got the dilute gene, I would not ount on it but there is a slight chance of dilute babies.

 

[TinysMom]

I wanted to add a few more points here that you probably already know.

We do know that you won't get:

• agouti, tans, martins, otters
• harlequin / magpie
• chocolate or lilac

You may possibly get blue - but I doubt it. Then again - with an opal in the background...I suppose it is possible that Minnie carries the "d" for the dilute gene - thus making broken blues possible. Now you've got me wanting to do the Punnet square on that.

I believe Opal is a dilute of agouti - right? If so - that means it isn't a possibility.

 

[TinysMom]

Ok - now you have me doing the Punnet squares on the theory that Minnie carries the dilute gene.

Minnie is across the top - Sippi is down the side:

D d

d Dd dd


d Dd dd



So - IF Minnie carries dilute (which you won't know till it shows up in the litter) - each kit has a 50% chance of being blue (or blue tort or blue sable point).

Remember these odds do not apply to the litter as a whole. I'm not saying you'll have 50% dilute kits.

Its like when you toss a penny in the air 100 times...each toss is an individual chance. Same with each kit.

I once had a broken tort doe give me three solid tort babies. (I wanted brokens). She later went on to have a litter of 9 and give me 7 broken babies.

With each baby - its like a new roll of the dice to see what you get...that was hard for me to remember at first.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Yes, opal is diluted agouti however it is possible the dilute gene has nothing to do with the agouti gene. If the dilute gene passes on it is possible, no matter if the agout gene passes.

 

[TinysMom]

While these are dwarf colors - here is a great site to look at to see various colors..

http://islandgems.net/compatible-colors.html

I'm still trying to think through the odds of you getting Siamese sable (sometimes called "sable") or Siamese Smoke Pearl vs. sable point. But its the whole "c" gene that throws me sometimes...

I also just went to Welsh Rabbitry's website and put in what we know of your genetic information and here is what it said:

Matrix for aaB_C_D_Ee(Black) and aaB_C_ddEe(Blue)
2
Black => 75.00%
Tortoise Shell => 25.00%

I then changed them to show that maybe both parents carried the dilute gene that gives blues and here is what I got..

Matrix for aaB_C_DdEe(Black) and aaB_C_ddEe(Blue)
4
Black => 37.50%
Tortoise Shell => 12.50%
Blue => 37.50%
Blue Tort => 12.50%

Ok - I gotta get outta here - I'd be up all night playing with genetics information....

 

[TinysMom]

bunnybunbunb wrote:

Yes, opal is diluted agouti however it is possible the dilute gene has nothing to do with the agouti gene. If the dilute gene passes on it is possible, no matter if the agout gene passes.

I respectfully disagree. I just checked into it....

Opal
A? B? C? dd E? VV

You must have an "A" to create opal. However, both black and blue MUST carry "aa" in order to be black or blue. The reason for this is the dominance on the "A" gene.

The order of dominance is:

From: http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/colorgenes.php

The Agouti Pattern A The Agouti gene set has three possible genes. They are list in order of dominance: A, at and a. The A gene is the typical wild rabbit color pattern. Rabbits with this gene would have white bellies, white eye circles and white on the underside of the tail. The individual hairs on a rabbit possessing the A gene will have color bands. If you blow on the back of the rabbit you will see circular bands of color, this is a result of this gene.
The at gene is known as the tan pattern. In order for this gene to display in the rabbit the second gene must either be an at or and a.If the second gene is an A (Agouti) the rabbit will carry the at but will show the A (agouti) since the A (Agouti) is dominant. The tan (at) gene has the same overall pattern as an Agouti. The belly will be white, the rabbit will have white eye circle, and the under side of the tail will be white. However, the individual hairs will not have color bands, but will be all one color.
The a gene is known as the self gene. Since this is the most recessive gene, the rabbit must have two a’s in the gene set to show this pattern (aa). With this gene the rabbit will be one color throughout their body, and the individual hairs will be one color.


Therefore - since both parents MUST be "aa" to be black and blue (self colors) - they can not give the babies an "A" gene for the agouti family.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

I know that hun Opal is a diluted agouti A-B-C-ddE- regular agouti is A-B-C-D-E- where as blue is aaB-C-dd-E-, if you bred blue to opal there is possibility of both. Opal 100% passes onone of it's diluted genes to all of it's children whether they are agouti or not which means the doe's parent for sure carries dilute but it is in question whether she got the dilute gene from her parent or not.

 

[TinysMom]

But you are not breeding blue to opal - you are breeding blue to black. Therefore - there is no chance of the "A" gene being passed on - it has to be the "aa" gene since both rabbits can only carry the recessive "a" gene.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Yes, however that is not whatIam trying to explain. It is not the agouti gene we are looking at, it is the dilute gene. The doe had a 25% chance of getting the dilute gene from her parent who got the gene from her parent. The agouti gene did not pass but that does not matter as the dilute gene does no rely on the agouti gene to pass. Just because the agouti gene is not there does not mean the dilute gene is not. Opal is only blue in agouti form, if you take the A gene away you get blue.