Change in Water Consumption

[user 7622]

Hello All;

I've been debating with myself for a few days now on whether to take my Pepin in to the vet for a check. She's had a gradual change in her water consumption (notices over the last few weeks) and consequently in her urine production but there are no signs of any other problems.

Pep is female, spayed, about 6.5 years, dwarf or dwarf/silver martin x (not certain), weighs about 2.5 lbs. I'm going to weigh her again tonight - it feels like she may have lost a few ounces.

I use a smallish crock for her water and normal consumption was about 3/4 of the crock in a 24 hour period. Lately she's about doubled that.......I haven't measured (will do tonight now that I just thought of it :rollseyes) but I estimate the crock holds about a cup of water. Her urine production seems to have correspondingly doubled. I don't see any signs of sludge - no unusual smells - haven't tried free collecting a sample so can't tell you what the colour is (I'll try getting a sample tonight). She seems to be in and out of the litter box a bit more frequently than I'm used to seeing as well.

Poop production is perfectly normal - as is cecal production; all happening in the litter boxes as normal.

Pellet and veggie consumption is also normal. Roughly 1/8 cup of timothy based pellets and a healthy handful of meadow grasses hay. I can't tell you how much hay she actually consumes. I toss in a healthy handful twice a day. Some of it she chomps up and makes into bedding for her basket. Hay consumption is, as it's always been, a challenge - she's not a big hay eater. It looks to me as if she's consuming a normal amount for her. I do give her one or two of the compressed hay blocks a week (to increase the amount of hay she does get) which she really likes but I try to encourage regular hay consumption (we play games with it....I tickle her whiskers which makes her bite at it!)

The only other thing I'm noticing is a tendency to want to be on the couch with me. She's never been much of a snuggle bun, and still isn't really, but she is hanging out for pets and nose rubs more than usual. No signs of pain - no teeth grinding, shaking, squeaking when I pick her up, etc. If I stop petting or nose rubbing I get a little nip (hey, we're NOT done yet!).

Sorry, trying to be thorough!

So, Given that everything else I can think of to look at seems to be perfectly normal - does an increase in water and urine production warrant a vet visit?

 

[Maureen Las]

This could be a symptom of diminishing kidney function ( increased thirst and urination)

I think that it would be a good idea to have a blood panel done so that you can see how her kidneys are working. this is not uncommon in an older rabbit.

i think a vet visit is good idea and please let us know how she is doing

 

[user 7622]

Whoop :banghead- didn't think of that......and should have since I saw that with one of my kitties a few years ago.

I'll call the vet - she needs her molars filed (non-urgent;vet said maybe on the next health check which is due in about 6 months) and we were going to do a senior's blood panel while he had her sedated for the molars.

I saw some weight loss with my kitty too so; oh oh.......

I'll let you know - thanks for the memory nudge.

 

[tonyshuman]

Yeah, it's good to do an annual blood panel for buns over 4 or so years old, and that might give you an idea of what's going on. Does she seem to be hopping normally, in particular with her hind legs? She is a total doll and I hope everything is fine with her--she reminds me of our bunny Frida.

 

[user 7622]

tonyshuman wrote:

Yeah, it's good to do an annual blood panel for buns over 4 or so years old, and that might give you an idea of what's going on. Does she seem to be hopping normally, in particular with her hind legs? She is a total doll and I hope everything is fine with her--she reminds me of our bunny Frida.

She is a doll! A cat terrorizing, feisty, pig-headed, nosey, demanding, couch chewing, water bottle ignoring, exasperating doll! :biggrin2:

Here's my favourite pic of her - just after a rather extended zoomy session. Don't often see her quite this relaxed - usually we just get the meatloaf - and very occasionally a full on flop.

Her mobility is absolutely, perfectly normal; Gold Medal worthy binkies, routine zoomy sessions, full body gophering to try and see just what the heck is on the other side of the baby gate, can get to the back of the couch from the floor in a single bound, 100 decibel thumps, etc. I did a grooming session this morning (must look our best for the vet!) and I always do a body check once she's all chilled out from the brushing - no bumps or swelling, no complaining when I moved her legs around - I'm not seeing any signs of any discomfort at all.

I measured the water crock - 1 cup when it's full. I also weighed her - 3 lbs, so not sure why it was feeling like she's lost weight - last vet check she was 2.5 lbs. Mind you - I don't have a proper pet scale at the moment - mine pooped out and I haven't gotten around to replacing it so I got 3 lbs from holding her while I stood on the people scale (it's digital and reads to 2 decimal points) and then subtracting my weight. I did try to get a urine sample by taking the litter out of the box in her cage hoping she'd use it sans litter. No luck - all I got was a few rather disgusted sounding thumps and some snorting at me while she marched over to the box I keep in the living room! (did I mention she's got some attitude? :devil) I'm reluctant to pull the litter all together; I don't want her holding her pee!

I have a vet appointment scheduled for tomorrow morning. The vet tech I talked to agreed that they should keep her for a few hours, sedate her for the molar filing and get a blood sample and a urine sample while she was out.

Hoping for the best!

 

[SweetSassy]

She's a beauty. rayraying for the best.

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh she sounds like a lot of fun!

I'm glad her mobility is good. Let us know what the vet thinks!

 

[dquesnel]

luvsmallfurries, I think I can tell you exactly why the water increase has occurred, as I also live in Vancouver Canada. It is because the weather is getting warmer! The rabbits do react to this, I find Vancouver bunnies especially increase their fluids once we get drier and warmer. It is no coincidence... However the advice you have been given is good, about blood panel, checking kidney function etc. I would really only worry if water intake has increased and the pee has suddenly become absolutley clear.

I think it the weather... My guys have doubled too. I've talked to other folks whose rabbits are also drinking more.

What kind of hay do you have? My guys like the baled Amberta timothy 2nd cut. They chow it down in huge mouthfuls. Maybe Pepin could go for another type of hay? Let me know- I am picking up a bale next weekend and would be more than happy to share some flakes with other Vancouver folks.

 

[user 7622]

dquesnel wrote:

luvsmallfurries, I think I can tell you exactly why the water increase has occurred, as I also live in Vancouver Canada. It is because the weather is getting warmer! The rabbits do react to this, I find Vancouver bunnies especially increase their fluids once we get drier and warmer. It is no coincidence... However the advice you have been given is good, about blood panel, checking kidney function etc. I would really only worry if water intake has increased and the pee has suddenly become absolutley clear.

I think it the weather... My guys have doubled too. I've talked to other folks whose rabbits are also drinking more.

What kind of hay do you have? My guys like the baled Amberta timothy 2nd cut. They chow it down in huge mouthfuls. Maybe Pepin could go for another type of hay? Let me know- I am picking up a bale next weekend and would be more than happy to share some flakes with other Vancouver folks.

Ya - I wondered about the weather as well.....and it does make sense. Good to know you've seen this too. I am going to have her see the vet at any rate. The teeth need dealing with regardless so it's no big deal to get a blood panel and a urine sample while she's down for that. I have no way of telling what her urine looks like. She won't go in an empty litter box to save her life....diva!:disgust:

I've had Pepin for 3 summers now and this is the first time I've seen her water consumption go up like this when the weather got warmer; so while it does make sense - it's still different, at least for her. And we live in a second floor apartment so it can be warm......not quite warm enough to get out the air conditioner yet however!

I'm wondering about the hay she's eating right now and whether that might be part of the problem. I usually get some loose hay from a friend who has a farm in Aldergrove and raises horses. He grows his own organically and he brings me a big green garbage bag full every couple of months. It's a typical meadow mix - primarily timothy with some orchard, brome, likely some rye, whatever alfalfa and oat blows over from the other farms (this is pretty minimal). However I ran out a couple of weeks ago and I dipped into an older bag that's been in the storage shed. It's cool and very dry so the hay isn't spoilt at all - but it does seem really dry. If the vet doesn't find anything I'm going to chalk it up to a) warmer weather and b) dry hay. I did finally get into a pet store today and picked up a bag of Kaytee Timothy (not my first, second or even third choice) but I don't have time to drive out to the valley right now!

Thanks for letting me know you're seeing this too.......it's a comfort! :thanks:

 

[user 7622]

So - good news. The vet saw absolutely no signs of illness whatsoever with Pepin. Perfectly normal temperature - great heart and respiration rates - no sign of dehydration at all - tummy and bladder both felt perfectly normal - eyes clear - no lumps, bumps or scratches any where - weight exactly where it was at the last visit (2.75 lbs) - nada. :clapping:

Pepin granted the vet one, count them! one, lick on the hand before letting off a stomp and a snort and shoving her nose under her hand for a rub and some Queen grooming. (Can someone please explain to me how an animal the size of a large can of beans and weighing less than my shoes gets away with this?)

Bad news (well, sort of!) - there was an emergency puppy that came in while we were there so they had to put off the dental work and blood work until tomorrow since the clinic is only half staffed on Sundays. Pepin will spend the night (it's a one hour drive and both hubby and I need to be at work tomorrow morning). She'll have her molars filed, blood drawn, urine drawn, nails clipped, etc. and they will call us once she's up and stomping at everyone :devil. So, no Pepin bossing everyone around tonight. The cats are both lounging on the living room floor and rolling around thinking to themselves "is she gone for good this time??????? :twitch:"

Gonna miss the little snorter.......

 

[dquesnel]

That is all really good news so far. Too bad she has to stay overnight but she should be ok.

Dry hay can definitely increase water consumption too. Hay should contain some moisture, although not much. It is more likely to dry out based on where it is stored, and if it is stored compressed or not. When the hay is dry I can actually see my rabbits eat some, go to water dish for a drink, eat more, go back to water dish etc etc. I forgot they they must get dry mouths too!

 

[maherwoman]

luvsmallfurries wrote:

So, no Pepin bossing everyone around tonight. The cats are both lounging on the living room floor and rolling around thinking to themselves "is she gone for good this time??????? :twitch:"

Gonna miss the little snorter.......

That cracks me up! Glad to hear good news.

 

[user 7622]

Ack! :scared:I have to stop coming in here and reading about post-surgery complications!

Pepin is doing just fine after her little procedure. I brought her home on Monday after work. She was a bit dozy from the anesthetic and super cuddly! Wanted to get up on my shoulder and hide in my hair.

So she has some very nice, even, freshly files molars and a little wee tiny shaved spot where they drew some blood.

I'm just waiting for the lab results. Vet will call today. But the rest of the physical exam got her an A+! X-rays showed no blockages of any kind in the belly, no bladder sludge, etc.

She didn't eat much on Monday evening (I'm guessing the mouth was a little sore!) but last night she was eating, pooping, peeing, chucking her hay all over looking for the nasty, spiky brown bits that she likes.....stomping around and shaking her cage door at me. Vet said to keep her confined for a day so I'll let her out for her normal romp and cat terrorizing session tonight.

 

[maherwoman]

AWW!! I'm so happy things went well...and happy to hear she's already grumpin' around.

GO PEPIN!!

 

[tonyshuman]

This little girl is great! I love her personality. Glad things went well, and I hope the test results get back soon with good info.

 

[user 7622]

She's a HOOT! When I lost my last rabbit I decided to donate her cage, supplies, etc. to the Rabbit Rescue Ass. and that's where I met Pepin. I had not intended to take a rabbit home but it was :hearts at first toe attack! I just kind of looked at my husband and said "I'll bet you she'd stand up to the cats" and he said "let's find out!" (famous last words, eh.....!) She's blind in one eye from a fight she had with another bun at her first home - they were trying to bond her. The other bun was more of the cuddly lap pet kind of thing they were looking for so they gave Pepin up to the rescue.

She was really aggressive with my three cats at first, but now she just stalks them for fun h34r2! She doesn't even bother attacking them anymore, just leaps out at them and grunts really loud - freaks them right out every time! If they'd learn to just not react she'd probably leave them totally alone. Her only nemesis is our little Senegal Parrot........he won't back down when she charges at him and you can just see it in her expression - the disgusted bunny Elvis sneer thing with the lips and the eyes saying "what the h.....!" Love her to death.......:rollseyes.

Haven't got a blog going yet but I have a few pics of her here:

http://s437.photobucket.com/albums/qq98/luvsmallfurries/Pepin/

Still waiting for the vet to call.......onder:

 

[user 7622]

Well - the news is not dire - but it's not great either.

The vet found:

1) cocci bacteria in the urine - indicating a UTI and has prescribed a course of antibiotics to treat that. I'm not sure which antibiotic it is - but I'll know when I pick it up tomorrow morning.
2) some protein in the urine - indicative of renal issues
3) very mildly anemic - the vet said that anemia in rabbits is not really understood but in cats and dogs it's another indicator for renal issues

Advice is to make sure Pepin is getting lots of fluids - soaking wet veggies everyday - and to check for tenting in the skin every day. SubQ therapy if or when she starts to show signs of dehydration.

We'll bring her back in about a week after the anti-biotic course for another urine sample to be sure it clears up.

So I'm wondering about a few things?

Is it worth starting SubQ therapy now - the theory being that it might extend her days if we work on keeping the kidneys flushed? I'm concerned about messing around with the urinary function too much knowing what I know about the sorts of issues that can come up (sludge, calcium deposits, etc.....)

Is it worth putting her on a lower protein pellet? She gets less than 1/8th a cup a day at the moment (excess cecal production, so I cut her back just a bit and it seemed to help). I currently feed Kaytee Timothy Complete (crude protein 13.0%, phosphorus 0.3%). Is there a better pellet for renal support?

It's hard to believe she's actually sick. She's snorfing down her pellets, hay and veggies as usual - and pooping and peeing as usual too. I have noticed she's gone back to her "normal" water consumption (guessing around 1/3 to 1/2 cup a day) so either the anesthetic put her off a bit or the fresh hay is helping. No temperature, totally normal activity levels - nothing seems out of place! I'm actually a bit mortified that had I not noticed the change in her water consumption I wouldn't have had her into the vet and they wouldn't have found the UTI!

Thanks for all the good wishes and support. I wish it were better news.

 

[tonyshuman]

I think that pellet is fine, especially since she gets so little. It's good that she is acting normally.

There are a few things you can do to help a bun whose kidneys are ailing, and sub-q's are one of them. I encourage you to read this thread on Luna, whose blood tests at one point showed she was in renal failure, but daily fluid therapy brought her back into the range of normal. http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=42945&forum_id=16

Another good learning experience for me is Chase, who had bladder sludge and stones and some not-so-good blood tests. She was on daily sub-q therapy as well as a drug that was meant to re-balance her electrolyte (potassium and sodium) levels from the excess urination, called Lasix. Your vet may want to try it at some point. http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=43493&forum_id=16

Sorry, both of those threads are long, but they taught me a ton about the urinary tract in bunnies.

I hope that the reduced renal function is due to a slight infection and not age/damage/genetics issues. She's not terribly old especially for a dwarf, but it seems that many of these issues wait til middle age or later to crop up, as with Luna. I forget how old Chase is at the moment. For both of these girls, it is assumed that the problem is a genetic issue with calcium metabolism. Since the first signs for them were stones in the kidneys or bladder, it seems that what Pepin has is a lot less severe, and like I said may just be from a slight UTI that has progressed from the bladder to the kidneys. If so, the antibiotics should take care of it.

Other things you can do to improve renal function is reduce the amount of calcium in the diet, which has mixed reviews, and offer certain herbs, which I think myheart and amy27 both looked into. Offering pedialyte (children's rehydration drink for diarrhea) can also help, since it contains necessary electrolytes.

It is really great that you caught this early and are getting it treated--I hope it's just a UTI and she'll be over it soon. However, if it's not, you'll be in a better position to handle any renal impairment. Just knowing how to do sub-q's is a great asset, even for future stasis events totally unrelated to kidney function.

Good luck, and give that grouch a head rub for me! I loved those pics of her. It's funny, but Frida our angry black silver marten dwarf LOVES to have behind her ears scratched, even though she may attack you as you bring your hand forward to do it!

 

[user 7622]

OK - thanks for the links tonyshuman! That looks like my casual reading for the weekend!

I picked up Pepin's antibiotics and had a quick chat with the vet while I was there. (Really quick - she was just up at the counter dropping off some papers and asked about Pepin).

The antibiotic is Baytril Enrofloxacin.

We spoke briefly about SubQ therapy and mutually decided against it for the time being. Pepin is taking in above average amounts of fluids on her own (for her body weight) and I don't want to introduce any more stress to her right now. The meds are enough thanks! She wasn't thrilled about taking the Baytril.....she didn't exactly fight it either, she just isn't wild about being held for too long. I may try just plopping it onto a little saucer this evening to see if she'd lick it up on her own....she seemed to like the taste, just not the man-handling. The lab numbers are all really borderline - there are a couple of signs in the urinalysis that point to kidney issues but the vet agreed that it could be the UTI affecting the kidneys. There's just nothing there that SCREAMS kidney failure. If I see any reduction in the fluid intake I'll take her in and have the show me how to do it.....

So, we'll give it a couple of weeks on the anti-biotics and a week or so to clear the system and then take her in for another urinalysis.

Is it worth posting the numbers from the lab work for folks to have a look at and comment on? I've been rooting around on the web but I'm having a hard time finding a layman's explanation of what the numbers mean?

So is it a dwarf trait or a silver martin trait this attitude? Pepin is not at all mean or angry, just absolutely certain that she's the most important creature on the planet and is determined to make sure everyone knows it!! The only time I have a problem is cleaning her cage - that gets me nips on ther butt, legs and arms everytime (she gets to explore the bathroom for cage cleaning times now.......!) I think she torments the cats only because it's fun! The "you groom me and I'll groom you" ratio is about 80/20 - she gets the 80 and I get the 20 of course! She LOVES her head rubs, especially right behind the eyes and very gentle ear pulls! I'm pretty sure she just likes to snort and grunt because she can.....her morning zoomy session can get pretty raucus!

 

[Maureen Las]

luvsmallfurries wrote:

OK - thanks for the links tonyshuman! That looks like my casual reading for the weekend!

I picked up Pepin's antibiotics and had a quick chat with the vet while I was there. (Really quick - she was just up at the counter dropping off some papers and asked about Pepin).

The antibiotic is Baytril Enrofloxacin.

We spoke briefly about SubQ therapy and mutually decided against it for the time being. Pepin is taking in above average amounts of fluids on her own (for her body weight) and I don't want to introduce any more stress to her right now. The meds are enough thanks! She wasn't thrilled about taking the Baytril.....she didn't exactly fight it either, she just isn't wild about being held for too long. I may try just plopping it onto a little saucer this evening to see if she'd lick it up on her own....she seemed to like the taste, just not the man-handling. The lab numbers are all really borderline - there are a couple of signs in the urinalysis that point to kidney issues but the vet agreed that it could be the UTI affecting the kidneys. There's just nothing there that SCREAMS kidney failure. If I see any reduction in the fluid intake I'll take her in and have the show me how to do it.....

So, we'll give it a couple of weeks on the anti-biotics and a week or so to clear the system and then take her in for another urinalysis.

Is it worth posting the numbers from the lab work for folks to have a look at and comment on? I've been rooting around on the web but I'm having a hard time finding a layman's explanation of what the numbers mean?

So is it a dwarf trait or a silver martin trait this attitude? Pepin is not at all mean or angry, just absolutely certain that she's the most important creature on the planet and is determined to make sure everyone knows it!! The only time I have a problem is cleaning her cage - that gets me nips on ther butt, legs and arms everytime (she gets to explore the bathroom for cage cleaning times now.......!) I think she torments the cats only because it's fun! The "you groom me and I'll groom you" ratio is about 80/20 - she gets the 80 and I get the 20 of course! She LOVES her head rubs, especially right behind the eyes and very gentle ear pulls! I'm pretty sure she just likes to snort and grunt because she can.....her morning zoomy session can get pretty raucus!

I think I can get lab values from one of kathy Smith's books but you would need to post more than just the numbers but the highs and the lows for that particlar lab.