Chance is lethargic and urinating on himself

[MyBoyHarper]

Thank you guys, all the prayers and good vibes are really appreciated. I haven't made a decision yet. I don't want to feel selfish by making him stay in pain, but I also don't want to rush into a decision and regret it for the rest of my life. So I have a lot of thinking to do.

Please continue the prayers, they're really needed.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

Have you gotten any Metacam for pain? If you at least have that on hand, it could help with his episodes.

 

[Pipp]

Metacam can compromise the kidneys, as can any NSAID. It restricts the blood flow. I don't have time to go through the posts, but Chance should be having a daily SubQ infusion, lactated ringers, at home. If that's happening, the pain meds are workable. You also have to be sure he is in pain. If he doesn't have stones or sludge, not sure where the pain is coming from. I'd wait for a better analysis of the underlying problem, but definitely do the daily SubQ.



sas ray:

 

[Haley]

Poor Chance. I'll be sending lots of prayers your way.

 

[ahri22]

I am sure there is a very good reason why none of the vets MBH has talked to have wanted to prescribe SubQs for Chance...although from my reading, it would *seem* to be the right thing to do.

Anyway, I would never flame anyone for deciding to have their pet euthanased if there seemed like no other option.

Of course, I will be devastated if Chance passes...but I'm sure that MBH will be more devastated than anyone to lose that precious boy!!!

I am keeping Chance in my prayers...that poor little guy has gone through so much, and obviously is the most precious bunny. I hope more than anything that at least one of the vets figures out what is wrong with him!!

If not...then I wouldn't want beautiful Chance to be in pain if there is no solution...

:group:

 

[f_j]

It must be awful seeing him suffer like this...I hope that his condition turns around soon. Poor little guy...and poor you

 

[Munchkin]

Oh you poor thing - what an awful dilema for you! I wouldn't dream of flaming....I'd much rather spend my energy sending hugs, love and prayers to you and your lovely bunny.

I really hope he improves and you stop having such a burden on your shoulders. *hugs*

 

[naturestee]

:hug2: I know you'll make the best decision for him, whatever that might be.

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Pipp wrote:

Chance should be having a daily SubQ infusion, lactated ringers, at home.

I'm not going to do this.

I've talked to three vets, two of them are rabbit exotic vets, and all three told me specifically to do not give him SubQ fluids, or any type of extra fluid. Not only could it be harmful, it could be deadly.

I asked them again why, and they said the idea of this is great for a rabbit who has urine sludge, or kidney sand, and that's the only problem. The kidney sand is only a secondary problem to something much larger with Chance. He's also in kidney failure.

The vets said with a rabbit already in kidney failure, if you load him up with fluids, his kidneys aregoing to go out. Because it's his kidney's that have to pump all those fluids through to filter them,and it's going to put too much stress and strain on a rabbit already in kidney failure.

They said it's like giving a person in congested heart failure a bunch of extra fluid. It's only going to overload their heart and put them in heart failure.

I've been told this by three vets already, so I am definitely not going to give him extra fluids and risk his kidney's completely going out. :?

 

[lalena2148]

MBH, did you get a chance to read the info on chronic renal failure I put on Chance's initial sickness thread?
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=19878&forum_id=1&page=4

It was the day you took Chance to the good vet and I figured out it is chronic renal (kidney failure).

Treatment options:
http://courses.vetmed.wsu.edu/vm552/urogenital/crf.htm
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/chronic_renal_failure.html
[size="-1"]TreatmentOptions[/size] (that site suggests Sub Q for renal failure to flush out the toxins)
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/chronic_renal_failure.html(support site for people who have rabbits w/ CRF. They may have success stories for you to get info).
http://www.petmedicinechest.com/rabbit/kidney.asp(medicine for flushing the kidneys for buns w/ CRF)

And I'm not flaming you. I know you will do what you feel is best for Chance. ray:
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[ec]

Some more good links re. renal disease and failure:

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rabrefs.html#kidneyfail

(I know someone has probably posted this link already, but I figured it would be worth a second look.)

I'd also think it would be worthwhile to drop another query on Etherbun.

And this - rabbit renal failure group on Yahoo:http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cfr-rabbits/

 

[lalena2148]

ec wrote:

And this - rabbit renal failure group on Yahoo:http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cfr-rabbits/

Thanks for that. I was trying to post THAT link for the support group, and I posted the one above it twice. Oops!

 

[Pipp]

MyBoyHarper wrote:

I'm not going to do this.

I wasn't suggesting you do this,as I said, I hadn't read the thread, I've lost track of his treatment. I was saying thatassuming you were doing that, then there was no problem with the Metacam or other pain killers as suggested in this thread, but otherwise, I'dbe questioning the effect ofpain meds on compromised kidneys and proceed with caution. If your doingpain meds, I'm pretty sure you need theSubQ.I'm assuming you're notgiving him pain meds without the vet prescribing them as well. It must be difficult for them all around if they don't know the cause of the problem.

I didn't comment about this only for Chance, there is a very strong pro-pain management contingent on this board -- and I'm one of the head cheerleaders -- but there is also danger in that, so I think we need reminders that pain meds are not always the best course of action.

Here's a wish forChance to becomfortable and not compromised. We're all pulling for you little buddy. You're in good hands.



sasray:and the warren :bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:

 

[ec]

No problem - I didn't intend to duplicate your post, either.

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Hi guys, thank you for the links, I will definitely look them over. EC, when I posted to Etherbun previously,they also suggested the SubQ fluids.

However, I am going to bypass this information and truly take the vet's advice. I feel most comfortable with that decision. I was told in the beginning to get a second opinion, and I got a second and a THIRD opinion, and all 3 tell me the same thing. And this is after looking at his x-rays, blood test results, urinalysis, and ultrasound results.

If three vets are all saying the same thing, I believe they truly have their reason. It may be case specific with Chance and what may be work and be okay with most renal failure rabbits, may not be okay for Chance. They seem to know his condition well and still are warning me again the fluids. So I feel most comfortable taking that warning and their advice and holding off on the fluids.

 

[ec]

MBH, I've lost track of what's been going on re. vet consultations, which is one of the reasons I posted the links.

We're all pulling for both you and Chance!

 

[Pipp]

MyBoyHarper wrote:

I was told in the beginning to get a second opinion, and I got a second and a THIRD opinion, and all 3 tell me the same thing. And this is after looking at his x-rays, blood test results, urinalysis,and ultrasound results.

Yeah, I've totally lost track, too. I remember the talk about the first vet apparently prescribing the wrong treatment, I thought somebody after that had put him on the standard treatment, that wasn't the case? So was the first vet's treatmentnotwrong? Or is it still that nobody knows?

sas

 

[MyBoyHarper]

My vet didn't know what to do, and put Chance on a urine acidfier and a low dose of Baytril. Chance got worse. So my vet took an x-ray, CBC, and a full blood panel. I got the results, and showed them to the rabbit vet the rescue uses. She was a bit stumped,and since my vet wanted us to go to the exotics vet, that's where we went.

He looked over the blood work, x-ray, and did an ultrasound. Chance's potassium is to the ground, his protein is too high, his alkaleinity if off the chart, and his ALT is too high indicating he has liver damage as well.

The ultrasound showed that Chance's left kidney was swollen as well.After all of this, they can't tell us WHY he is the way he is, but all three concluded that the sand was secondary to something larger, but no one knows what. No one can pin-point why his organs are the way they are, why he is so sick, and what has caused his kidney's to be the way they are.

I asked them about SubQ fluids, and got the same response, including a detailed response from the exotics vet that sealed the deal with me not putting Chance on it.

I'm aggrivated and frustrated, because I am turning circles and getting nowhere with what is wrong with him. I don't want to, but I am about ready to just give up. Why keep torturing him with tests, only to watch him get sicker as vet's stand by cluelessly.

 

[ec]

Was Chance ever seen at the LSU clinic? if so, what did they say?

I'm very confused here, like Pipp.

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Not too much to be confused on, I've pretty much covered what's been done to him. There really isn't any answers so far from the vets, so this is pretty much it.

Here's the link to his update thread, this should catch anyone interested up to speed:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=19878&forum_id=1