Calcium buildup

[billinjax]

I'll let you know how the Potassium Citrate affects, if at all, Jack's sludge problem. You may find yourself looking for additional new ideas in a month or two.

We're nine months into the overall process and have gone one week on this new treatment.

Regarding the Vitamin D, I purchased, but have not used much, a UVA light bulb (or was it UVB?) that should emit light that is absorbed as Vitamin D. I'm a bit rusty on the specifics since it's been a long time since I researched this. I believe this is something used for indoor birds that need Vitamin D.

Those prices are great. I think I spent between $600-$800 on the first week of Jack's sludge problem which required a 3-4 day stay at the vet.

Let us know how Honey is doing.

 

[dainerra]

He is thumping all over the hutch this morning. It's colder and raining here this morning and Honey is feeling his oats! He's still eating well and drinking. I've been checking the "potty area" and no sludge. Of course, the last few days he's had enough liquids pumped through him that he's probably peeing mostly fluids anyway.

It's great to see him back to his normal self.

 

[billinjax]

Glad to hear things are looking up.

One note, despite months of dealing with this, I rarely see sludge in Jack's litter box. The urine may be darker, which can indicate sludge in our case, but it also varies in color based on what he has been eating. The only time I've seen the actual thick sludge has been right after my vet tries to manually express his bladder and he has to pass some excess in the litter box during the next 24 hours.

Although expensive, CareFresh Ultra is a white paper-based litter and is excellent for monitoring this situation compared to other litters I have tried.

Also, I can relate to the "normal self" scenario. In fact, Jack has been very active during all of this and usually seems quite normal despite his x-rays, which consistently show sludge in his bladder. Jack usually only shows signs of pain when it gets really bad or right after vet appointments.

 

[dainerra]

ah, Honey's symptoms were very different - very lethargic and frothy urine. He went from "normal" urine to yellowish/whitish froth.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

dainerra wrote:

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

I never realized that so many green veggies were so high in calcium!

This is what I was going to say, and it's why I don't suggest veggie diets. Because pellets include nutritional facts on the bag, it's much easier to balance a good diet for your rabbit using a high quality pellet and grass hay. You can see exactly what you're feeding.

At this point in time, it is usually suggested to feed a "variety" of greens in a veggie diet. And then often lists a blanket statement amount of veggies to feed daily. But this really isn't a good diet for a bunny unless you know exactly what each particular veggie contains and how much of it your rabbit should receive of each to balance a healthy diet. Very few people have this knowledge, so veggie diets become a very iffy thing, and it's never certain whether the rabbit is receiving its recommended daily amount of vitamins and nutrients, as well as fat, protein, and fiber.

I'd highly suggest sticking to a pellet/hay diet with occasional veggie treats, if possible. There are a lot of excellent pellet manufacturers out there to give your rabbit exactly what it needs.

 

[dainerra]

I called the vet tonight because Freya my GSD pulled out some of her stitches from her spay. Of course the on-call vet asked how Honey is doing. She promised to update everyone in the office.

He's still doing well. Putting on weight. Back to being the top bunny in the box lol

 

[Pipp]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

dainerra wrote:

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

I never realized that so many green veggies were so high in calcium!

This is what I was going to say, and it's why I don't suggest veggie diets. Because pellets include nutritional facts on the bag, it's much easier to balance a good diet for your rabbit using a high quality pellet and grass hay. You can see exactly what you're feeding.

Mother nature is far better at balancing bunny diets than humans. Rabbits naturally eat mostly hay, grass, leafy greens and other vegetation. The calcium and other ingredients is 'added' content in pellets, not natural content. A small amount of pellets is definitely recommended as a supplement simply because of the huge volume of vegetation naturally required by rabbits to meet their dietary needs.

If the rabbits are not getting a good variety and a good volume of the above, and other natural nutrients from sources like sunshine, then yes, more pellets are the next best thing.

But pellets were developed to cater to large numbers of caged rabbits needing to be fed easily by the breeders and grow in a productive manner with a 'market' in mind -- they needed to attain certain weights and conditioning suitable for meat and show. They were not designed for slow growth and long lives. Ailments like dental disease are traditionally 'aging' issues.

The biggest advantage of a varied diet, even more so than the nutrients, still lies with dental wear, something pellets do not provide at all. And I'm not convinced that a single brand of hay alone provides the necessary variety for wear, either.

But back to the calcium issue, rabbits need a balanced amount of calcium for healthy bones and overtly to prevent dental disease. I find the current trend towards cutting out calcium alarming and the ramifications certainly need more research. Dental disease seems more predominant than urinary sludge and stones. Whether that is calcium-related or a byproduct of 'chewing' trends needs further study.

I'm looking at a study of 210 rabbits, and almost 40% had some form of oral disease.


sas :?

 

[Pipp]

dainerra wrote:

wow, Vit D isn't even listed on the label.

You may have to look under Ingredients, not Contents. If you can list those as well, I'd love to put this in the Library.

Mind you, Nutrena looks pretty crappy to me just based on the info they give on the website, recommending that people not give their rabbits hay and saying if they do to chop it up, etc etc etc... Lots of bad advice!

Here's the Library link if nobody has put that in this thread yet:

Pellets



sas :bunnydance:

 

[devilishblueyes]

What you stated below is not the list of ingredients. What you stated is basically similar to the nutrition facts on a box of food that you see at the store. Normally, the nutrition facts can be found printed on the back of the bag or at the top of the bag tag. The actual ingredients are normally listed on the tag found sewn to the bottom of the bag. You should see the nutrition facts listed, then below them will be a list of ingredients. The ingredients should be listed from first to last based on the percentage by weight they make up of the feed. So the ingredient that makes up most by weight will be listed first. You'll normally see ingredients like alfalfa, wheat middlings and soybean meal listed first and stuff like vitamins and mineral listed last.

crude Protein: Min 17%
crude fat: Min 2.5
crude fiber: min 16% Max 18%
Calcium: min .75% Max 1.25%
Phosphorus: Min .6%
salt Min .5% Max 1%
sodium Min .2% Max .4%
Vit A Min 9,000IU/LB

Nutrena is an OK feed. I used to feed it. I did have a little trouble with my rabbits wanting to eat it at times and every so often they would tend to get a little diarrhea on it in the summer. I tend to like Heinold Feeds, Show Rite, Kent, and Nutritional. Heinold Feeds was developed by Doc Reed who was a well known rabbit veterinarian. Many of the Best In Shows at the ARBA Convention were raised on Heinold Feed. Show Rite (part of Hubbard Feeds) bought the original Heinold formula developed by Doc Reed. Nutritional was developed with the help ofa number of experienced rabbit breeders that show rabbits. Kent has been around for a long time and they have also listened to the advice of a number of experienced rabbit breeders taht show rabbits.

 

[Pipp]

devilishblueyes wrote:

What you stated below is not the list of ingredients.  What you stated is basically similar to the nutrition facts on a box of food that you see at the store. 

Hey DBE, right you are.

Thanks for signing up! I just quoted you in another thread but I couldn't credit you because I wasn't sure who or how to credit it, LOL!

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=55551&forum_id=48&jump_to=751988#p751988

and it's also being discussed here:

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=55580&forum_id=48



sas

 

[devilishblueyes]

Pipp wrote:

dainerra wrote:

wow, Vit D isn't even listed on the label.

You may have to look under Ingredients, not Contents. If you can list those as well, I'd love to put this in the Library.

Mind you, Nutrena looks pretty crappy to me just based on the info they give on the website, recommending that people not give their rabbits hay and saying if they do to chop it up, etc etc etc... Lots of bad advice!

Here's the Library link if nobody has put that in this thread yet:

Pellets



sas :bunnydance:

Pipp, I have to disagree with your evaluation of Nutrena's website. Below is a link to it so other people can read it.

http://www.nutrenaworld.com/nutrena/products/more-species/rabbits/performance-rabbit-formula/index.jsp

Rabbit pellets are normally designed to give the rabbit a balanced diet. The website says that it is not necessary to feed hay with the rabbit pellets. That is because in most rabbit pellets the main ingredient is usually hay. It isn't necessary to feed more hay if the pellets already provide enough hay themselves. Their website does not prohibit feeding hay. It simply says that it isn't needed because the pellets already contain enough so that it isn't needed in addition. The are also right that you want to feed by weight, not by volume. That is a more accurate way to feed to ensure your rabbit gets the same amount every time. They also give good advice about feeding at the same time every day. That is very important so your rabbit is less likely to stop eating. They also give good advice about providing fresh water at all times and about keeping the water, feeders, and pen clean which helps prevent diseases such as coccidiosis. And the amounts ofpellets they recommend are the same amounts most rabbit veterinarians recommend. The info they provide about hay regarding checking for mildew is also good. If the hay contains mildew or fungus that can give your rabbit diarrhea. So that is very good advice. And cutting it up into 3-4" pieces makes it so that it fits in hay racks better and doesn't get wasted.

Their only piece of advice that I would normally disagree with is giving the rabbit a salt spool. Most rabbit feeds will have the needed salt already incorporated into the rabbit pellets. If the salt is not contained in the rabbit pellets then the salt block is needed. However, salt blocks can cause wire cages to rust, causing holes to form in them and the floor to become rusty and hard on their feet. If a salt block is absolutely needed I would recommend putting it inside a crock so that the pen doesn't rust out.

Also the varieties of hay they listed are hays that should have good amounts of protein. If too much grass hay such as timothy, orchard grass, or oat hay is fed the rabbit can get too little protein. Grass hays often contain under 9% crude protein and a rabbit needs at minimum 12% crude protein.

Their recommendations are actually very good.

 

[Pipp]

I just strongly disagree with the idea that rabbits don't need hay or grass and can be healthy on just pellets, mostly because of dental disease and other 'old age' diseases (fatty liver, kidney) that aren't a priority with breeders.  The Nutrena site mainly discusses meat and show conditioning, etc..   It suits the purposes of their market.

And I guess hay bits a few inches long are okay, I initially thought they were in smaller bits and didn't quite see why they said that.

Pet rabbits really do have different long term needs.  And pet owners have fewer numbers and don't have to deal with the 'convenience' issue. 

I still don't think pet rabbit care is quite where it should be with the short term needs, either, mind you.  I'm not well versed in the science, but I think a metabolic bone disease issue may be behind the dental disease and the stones/sludge issue, and it could be diet-related. And pet bunnies seem to have GI issues more than they should as well.

I'm personally trying to feed as much of a natural a diet as I can with pellets as a supplement.  

Thanks for your input!


sas :bunnydance: