Breeding

[TinysMom]

Myia09 wrote:

Basically, people get a lot of crap on this fourm for accidental litters. Like, when my lionhead had a litter (who passed) from Pinball, I got a lot of flank for it!
I was irresponsible (Althouhg it was my vet who missexed chewy) And when I said I would like to breed her again - to another lionhead- for all reasons for myself, and I had four homes lined up (All friends) I got a LOT of crap! So I dont undestand what the difference is between you and I.

I do see if you might come across a great rex in a pet store you would want to breed; but then why is it most breeders so against a normal person (like me) wanting to do it? Because, what, I don't call myself a breeder?

First of all - I think there are two types of "crap" you'll get on this forum for breeding.

One is from the people who rescue who will say, "why breed when it isn't purebred because there are so many rabbits out there needing homes". They look at the babies as rabbits that will be placed in homes that might have taken in a shelter bunny instead.

The other type you'll get is from breeders - partly because other breeders make things look bad for all of us. Sometimes we get enough flack as it is from some folks - then to have someone want to breed when we know that it is not quality rabbits - its just hard to explain.

Something to consider is that as a breeder - before I have my next litter(s) - I will have close to $500 put away for emergency vet bills. I will have extra cages already for when the babies start growing out and have to be separated. I will have formula on hand - I will have a nestbox that is the right size, etc.

I've "STUDIED" breeding - the genetics behind it - I've studied (sorta) how to know when a doe is going to kindle - what problems to watch for. I try to be prepared - but even still things can happen.

Just back in December I had two does give birth (so I could have a foster mother as back-up) - and one mama had 11 and the other one had 6 - and the mama with six not only didn't have her milk come in - she had a retained placenta and needed to see the vet for X rays, meds, etc.

Most people who want to breed cute little Fluffy (just pulling a name out of the air) - aren't prepared for what can happen.

I knew better and I still didn't have formula on hand (duh) because I thought I'd have a back-up mama.

Also - it is heartbreaking to lose kits and it can happen - especially to first time mamas.

I just think that usually (not always) most "pet" owners have not educated themselves enough or prepared themselves enough financially and in other ways - to breed.

In addition - it is heartbreaking to breed a pet and then lose it due to complications.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

Back in the summer I had a doe that kit's had grew so big inside of her she could not push them out. She was bred to a buck smaller than her. Anyway, I called around, breeders could not help, vet said if she was indeed in active labor like I stated that all they could do was put her down because the stress from the surgery would -probably- be to much and would be very costly. So I was alone. I had to figure out how to get the babies out without hurting her - and I did. 18 hours of active pushing labor produced three HUGE dead kits, all of which I had to basicly squeeze from her as she pushed.

Not everything is clouds of fluffy and pretty flowers in rabbits. If you can not handle dead babies, mothers raising babies for a week and then eating them, walking in to find a baby alive with all it's legs and tail ate off, injuries and death it is not for you. Rabbit breeding is a "breeding ground" for death and sadness, it is not only happiness. You have to decide if the happiness is worth the sadness.

 

[mistyjr]

It is the hardest thing to loose babies or your part of your herd! I cried for hrs. But I know its part of life. With the babies that died on me. I didnt even cry. I was sad but I knew it was going to happen

 

[Myia09]

Peg, you make great points, and I couldn't agree with you more.

First, I only have one pedigreed rabbit. I looked, and your absoultly right. No health.
Now, I am looking at my chinchillas papers. List of all known problems, vet visits, and the parents reason for EVER going to the vet.
It seems so strange to me the difference in breeding; but that was most of my confusion.

I never really looked at Sheriffs (EL) papers before.

There are standards, showing, and color development in chinchillas, and it seems a lot more strict..no, it is in fact way more strict than here in the rabbit world.

I also assume people already have savings accounts for thier animals (Psh silly me!)

I breed reptiles; and I am getting into breeding of chinchillas and I guess to me these are all common things I never thought about. When chewy was pregnant, I took her to the vet, the babies to the vet, and tried feeding them myself. (Chew didn't produce any milk), and lost all of them. It was heartbreaking, especially since the fatehr passed later on and I always wished he could have had a litle baby to live on with us.

I always forget not everyone thinks things through

 

[countrybuns]

I personally think that ARBA needs to find a better way to regulate pedigrees to make them more useable for breeders because they can be valuable when they are right and adding health info would make them much more useful.

 

[pamnock]

countrybuns wrote:

I personally think that ARBA needs to find a better way to regulate pedigrees to make them more useable for breeders because they can be valuable when they are right and adding health info would make them much more useful.

They have! It's called the registration system. As far as addressing health issues, any rabbit with an ailment cannot be registered.

 

[Happi Bun]

That's interesting, Pam!

So being pedigreed and registered are two different things then?

 

[pamnock]

Happi Bun wrote:

That's interesting, Pam!

So being pedigreed and registered are two different things then?

Correct.

Pedigree: Record of ancestry

Registration: A official record of a rabbit that has been inspected by an ARBA registrar and certified as purebred, meeting the breed standard, healthy, and having no disqualifications.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

"Registration: A official record of a rabbit that has been inspected by an ARBA registrar and certified as purebred, meeting the breed standard, healthy, and having no disqualifications."

Healthy in the physical aspect, and at time of inspection. It does not mean the animal will not show genetic illness later on or produce/carry problems.

 

[Luluznewz]

I have to say, I completely agree. After working at an animal shelter that was SO overcrowded with all sorts of unloved and unwanted animals the concept of breeding more is hard for me.

So, that being said, I really think that if you plan on bringing more animals into they world they should be great quality. There is nothing wrong with breeding animals that are good examples of their breed. Those animals will have the assurance of good quality and have a better chance of finding homes because of it.

In my opinion, breeding for "pet quality" animals is truly insane. There are millions of pet quality animals in shelters.Breeding "show quality" animals is an entirely different world. Those animals have an actual purpose. You are breeding for a REASON. Breeding and showing rabbits is a job/ life for some people. Breeding pet quality animals is very different.

I mean to offend no one. To be honest, I'm so glad someone finally said this because I really think a lot of us have been thinking it.

To the incredible breeders on this site: I mean no disrespect. What you guys do really is great. You educate people and bring really awesome animals into the world. You have a REASON for doing it. Its not just about the cute babies.

EDIT: I think I should add something. I personally don't really care so much about actually having the pedigree in hand. The point is though...the animal COULD have a good one, weather or not its actually there. Even if it doesnt actually have one it should have been bred to improve the breed. I think some people are getting hung up on the pedigree thing when really I felt the OP was talking more about irresponsible breeding practices. A good animal is a good animal pedigree or no. But if you breed two pet quality animals to get like...5 more then you just have a ton of rabbits that arn't good examples of the breed AND dont have a pedigree...congrats.

 

[TinysMom]

Luluznewz wrote:

I have to say, I completely agree. After working at an animal shelter that was SO overcrowded with all sorts of unloved and unwanted animals the concept of breeding more is hard for me.

So, that being said, I really think that if you plan on bringing more animals into they world they should be great quality. There is nothing wrong with breeding animals that are good examples of their breed. Those animals will have the assurance of good quality and have a better chance of finding homes because of it.

I want to say "thank you" for realizing as someone who works at the shelter that not all breeders are horrible people and that there can be a purpose for breeding sometimes.

In my opinion, breeding for "pet quality" animals is truly insane. There are millions of pet quality animals in shelters.Breeding "show quality" animals is an entirely different world. Those animals have an actual purpose. You are breeding for a REASON. Breeding and showing rabbits is a job/ life for some people. Breeding pet quality animals is very different.

While I agree with you - I also want to point out that there are areas of the country like mine - where you might not find a rabbit shelter or rabbits in any sort of a shelter without a 4-6 hour drive.

Here in Del Rio - if you want a rabbit - there is no pet store (you have to drive 150+ miles to find one) - so you have to go one of three places:

The feed store
The flea market
Hope to find one in the newspaper

I just brought in the very first holland lops last weekend and after showing them at the feed store this past week (just to show them to the people there who are like friends to me) - I'm already getting calls asking when I'll have lops for sale (hint: not for six months as they're only 3 months old now).

But I'm in a small community and we're not like y'all in California where I understand the shelters and rescues are pretty darn full.

I'll never forget when I got my first rabbits and I fell in love with them. I was part of this forum and had not yet started breeding lionheads. I called the local animal shelter AND vets in the area to let them know I'd be happy to get extra cages to "foster" rabbits if they were turned in for care.

I got laughed at. NOBODY turns in rabbits here...and the vets don't treat rabbits.

I still am only breeding show quality animals now - but I am ok if I get pets because there aren't that many breeders and sometimes the feed store has a waiting list of people who have been calling to see about getting a rabbit.

I mean to offend no one. To be honest, I'm so glad someone finally said this because I really think a lot of us have been thinking it.

To the incredible breeders on this site: I mean no disrespect. What you guys do really is great. You educate people and bring really awesome animals into the world. You have a REASON for doing it. Its not just about the cute babies.

EDIT: I think I should add something. I personally don't really care so much about actually having the pedigree in hand. The point is though...the animal COULD have a good one, weather or not its actually there. Even if it doesnt actually have one it should have been bred to improve the breed. I think some people are getting hung up on the pedigree thing when really I felt the OP was talking more about irresponsible breeding practices. A good animal is a good animal pedigree or no. But if you breed two pet quality animals to get like...5 more then you just have a ton of rabbits that arn't good examples of the breed AND dont have a pedigree...congrats.

BRAVO - EXCELLENT STATEMENT!

 

[pamnock]

bunnybunbunb wrote:

"Registration: A official record of a rabbit that has been inspected by an ARBA registrar and certified as purebred, meeting the breed standard, healthy, and having no disqualifications."

Healthy in the physical aspect, and at time of inspection. It does not mean the animal will not show genetic illness later on or produce/carry problems.

Expensive genetic testing for recessive disorders isn't a practical option.