Breeding

[Myia09]

MODERATOR NOTE: This thread was originally pulled for some editing and is being reinstated. During the time it was pulled, another thread on pedigrees was posted in response to this thread.

I'm going to MERGE the two threads into one since the one on pedigrees was answering some of the questions in this thread.

Thanks for your understanding! If you have questions - feel free to contact me via. pm. - TinysMom / (Peg)

Not to highjack her thread, I am posting some personal questions to breeders and about breeding.

So this is my issue/question.

I understand somewhere, somehow, breeding probably started with unpedigreed rabbits. That we all took a good chance and decided to breed; either to produce more or make new breeds.

But the purpose of a pedigree now a day is for showing the lineage for fur color, health, and other showing or breeding purposes.

I understand people can just “write up” a pedigree…But that will make them a bad breeder and honestly I would never buy from someone who would do that.

What I don’t understand is your breeding (And others are as well) unpedigreed animals who you don’t know their family line so I don’t know how you can say they are “healthy?”

I am not trying to be mean, I am trying to understand. Many animals can carry genetic deformities and illness without it being shown for a matter of a couple lines: This is especially true in Chinchillas.

I know Chinchillas are not the same in rabbits, or dog, or whatever.

But to me, to be a “Breeder” in the acceptable sense, I don’t know why the choice to breed unpedigreed animals is made…and not only unpedigreed, but poor quality breeds.

I also understand Lionhead are not accepted into the ARBA yet, but there are tons of breeders trying to set a standard, and bunch of people ignoring efforts and breeding whatever can pass off as lionhead.

I don’t understand why someone would want to breed any rabbit that is so clearly off the standard – even if it isn’t fully regulated what the standard is-and this goes for everyone.

“Pet quality” is something usually used if the rabbit for some reason just grew too much, had mis-coloring..not something intentionally bred?

So if your only breeding for “yourself” and not following ARBA standards what are you contributing as a breeder to the standard and the rabbit types that you breed?

Maybe I have been in the Chinchilla world for too long, but you are simply a backyard breeder if you breed non pedigreed pets, that it is irresponsible. So I want to know why it is chosen to do by so many breeders I have seen on this forum.

The difference is I guess; is I am so used to the hard breeding of Chinchillas, who have usually on average only 2 kits a pregnancy, and carry a lot more problems that rabbits. Where health lines are dramatically far more important and people rely heavily on pedigrees and lineage.

I bought a pet-quality Netherland Dwarf from a breeder here in Arizona. The lady bred only pet-quality, despite her now buying more show able breeders- he had a seizure that was “Dwarf” related (As said by my vet). In fact, upon contacting her, I found out that he had two siblings who also had seizures in the past!

Now, something in the doe x buck pairing (Unpedigreed) obviously produced seizures!

I had a Necropsies done on Pinball to make sure it wasn’t anything relating to just himself and there was no proof of anything to do with any pre existing ailment.

So if she keeps breeding the pair, of if someone else buys a baby and it continues to pass that, don’t you see a problem with that? And because they don’t have pedigrees, there is no way to tell that it exists.

And there is no way to tell even what your rabbit really is…how many times can we ask Pamnock “What is my breed?” lol…there is no way to tell for sure without a pedigree!

I also don’t understand breeding if you’re not breeding to quality or perfection, because there are many many rabbits who don’t have a home at rescues or others who are “pet quality” and not pedigreed.

To me, its like taking a shelter bunny and breeding it. Wouldn’t we be against that? What about taking a bunny from a farm store and breeding? I never ever hear that “pet store animals” should be bred. It is always AGAINST them being bred. Isn’t that right?

And last but not least; doesn’t that just make you another backyard breeder that we are all so against? When does breeding for quality, preserving the breed, just turn into a hobby and an overpopulation of rabbits? When does your brood doe just turn into another rescue bunny?

Breeders exist to preserve the standard; the breed. To produce quality animals for others. Not to simply breed, make money, and see cute babies. I thought that is something we all agreed on.

I am not a breeder; I am a member of the ARBA and trying my hardest to learn about rabbit breeding and types. I never want to breed, but I know it is important. Please reply to this knowing I am wholeheartly confused and simply stating why this is going on, what seems to be such a contradiction to everything I have heard- and seeking opinions, not arguments.

Also I am adding that if a rabbits pedigree doesn’t have its health involved in it the argument that pedigrees are “pointless” is slightly valid. But the fact is, pedigrees should still exist because I don’t see how breeding pet store rabbits or rescue rabbits can be an acceptable, and pedigrees should be used, if not for health lineage, to point out that these rabbits were meant for breeding because they are a standard of the breed; not a pet store mutt. Plus, think how laborious breeding is and how your subjecting poor PETS to it, and before anyone gets “into” breeding for “themselves” understand you are subjecting animals to your “hobby” and putting their lives at risk- yes it may be something they do in the wild-but were not producing the conditions like in the wild.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Myia09 wrote:

And there is no way to tell even what your rabbit really is…how many times can we ask Pamnock “What is my breed?” lol…there is no way to tell for sure without a pedigree!

You don't have to have the pedigree to tell what the breed of a rabbit is. You can usually just make estimates by the general apperances and weight of the animal. Of course, there's no surefire way of telling because the animal isn't a purebred, it's just a mix, and heck, it could be mixed with every breed out there but look exactly like a Polish, or a Mini Lop.

I understand somewhere, somehow, breeding probably started with unpedigreed rabbits. That we all took a good chance and decided to breed; either to produce more or make new breeds.

Yes, that is probably how breeding started out, but then once the breeders had 3 or 4 generations they were actually able to make the full, legit, pedigrees.

“Pet quality” is something usually used if the rabbit for some reason just grew too much, had mis-coloring..not something intentionally bred?

Pet quality isn't intentionally bred by responsible breeders, no. Pet quality means that they won't be good for showing or breeding; they most likely will have disqualifications.

Although you're not meaning to attack anyone in here, you are. I find that some things you have said are quite rude, and you will probably find yourself being flamed for this... The comments towards Bunnybunbunb, and especially Mistyjr, are unncessary.

Emily

 

[bunnybunbunb]

I do not have the time at this moment to read it all but I want to state something.

No where on a pedigree does it state the genetics or health of the animal or it's ancestors. A rabbit pedigree simply states the animal and it's parents, grandparents, great grandparent's names, breed, color, ear number and if you are lucky their weight and show history. Some, very few, breeders add in the rabbit's color genetic code. That is ALL that is on a rabbit pedigree. The peice of paper no were states past history for breeding, cancer, illness, agression, ect.

So the point is the $20 peice of paper has nothing to do with genetic health. A rabbit does not have to be registered to have a pedigree, unlike dogs. They do not require genetic tests.

Yes, I breed for myself. I see all these lionheads out there with a woolie body, long flank wool, narrow short bodies and bone as thick as a hollands. This is not what the standard calls for but many people breed for this because they find it more appealing. Many people think long flank wool is proper and that is what people want. Personally, give me a $10 lionhead with no pedigree who has clean body and flanks, distinct mane, medium bone, balanced head/ear and a nice wide body.

Is it wrong to breed for what you want and believe to be proper insted of what is more comercial? How is it wrong for me to breed lionheads without pedigrees but not wrong for someone to breed in other breeds to the lionhead as long as they keep pedigrees? I am a bad breeder because I have some rabbits with no pedigree even if the rabbits are treated well and I keep it small, but if someone has 100 rabbits and mostly all they do is feed, breed and clean but they have pedigrees so they are good "respectable" breeders?

Give me a break, a peice of paper does not make a proper breeder.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

This is my second try, the first time my computer freaked and the post was lost.

Anyway, today a post was made in regards to breeding and pedigrees. The post was pulled, however, I thought it had really good questions. A few I wish to address. I do not have the reasons for which it was pulled but I do believe I know why and I also believe this post is well within the realm of ok to post, even with the original being pulled.

In the post it was basicly about breeding rabbits without pedigrees, how that is linked to backyard breeders and ill health in rabbits. To put it simply a peice of paper does not make an animal good, or the breeder of said animal respectable.

In long:

Many people tie ill health in rabbits to backyard breeders. It is believed they do not pedigree and so rabbits without pedigrees are unhealthily bred. If you breed rabbits without pedigrees you must be a bad breeder, your animals must be of bad genetics.

This is not so.

I shall explain; No where on a rabbitpedigree does it state the genetics or health of the animal or it's ancestors. A rabbit pedigree simply states the animal and it's parents, grandparents, great grandparent's names, breed, color, ear number and if you are lucky their weight and show history. Some, very few, breeders add in the rabbit's color genetic code. That is ALL that is on a rabbit pedigree. The peice of paper no were states past history for breeding, cancer, illness, agression, ect.

So the point is the $20 peice of paper has nothing to do with genetic health. A rabbit does not have to be registered to have a pedigree, unlike dogs. They do not require genetic tests. If a breeder wants to make their own pedigrees and put past health and breeding issues they may, however, I have yet to come across a breeder who does this.

Apeice of paper does not make a proper breeder, proper breeding and culling(non-killing in my rabbitry) for health, breeding consistancy and type makes a proper breeder. A proper breeder cares about the mental and physical health of the animals. A proper breeder cares about where the animals they bring into their world goes. A proper breeder does not get so many animals that they can not injoy what they do and the animals do not stop injoying their life.

Now, you can take what ever opinion on me, and all the other breeders on the forum who properly care for their animals, maybe even better than some of the show breeders on here, who do not havepedigrees. Just remember that Person A's rabbits is not healthier/better than Person B's rabbits just because Person A's rabbits all have pedigrees while not all of Person B's has pedigrees.

:bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:

 

[Silver Star Rabbitry]

I agree.

Emily


Silver Star Rabbitry
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Marten Rabbits in North Louisiana.

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://silverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/

[email protected]

 

[Erins Rabbits]

IMO, a rabbit without a pedigree can't be considered purebred. And if the guarantee that the animal can be registered and bred without making me feel like an irresponsible breeder costs me an extra few bucks, so be it.

The thing is- you aren't guaranteed the animal is purebred without a pedigree. You can't really guarantee it WITH a pedigree, but a history of the animals ancestors has me more likely to want to buy it as well.

One last thing- Pedigrees are desirable from a sales standpoint. So, lets say, your original rabbits came with pedigrees, but you never bothered to keep track of them, or say, lost one. Now, you decide, so what? I'll breed them anyway. You not only make less off the sales of the offspring, but less people are interested in your rabbits because, well, who knows? The sire could be some rondom thing you picked up at a pet shop, etc etc. So, the harder it is to sell them, the longer you have to keep them around. And since many are no kill rabbitries, where does that leave you? With a bunch of culls filling up holes that better quality animals could be in.

And that's just the thing. As a breeder, if you don't keep pedigrees, you won't be shown the same respect as any given person who does. Maybe the animals would be just as great, maybe better, but it won't matter, because from a fellow breeder's standpoint, they'll bypass your rabbitry for one that offers pedigrees.

I know, personally, I won't breed or sell any animal without a pedigree. Purchasing an animal with no pedigree? TOTALLY out of the question. What someone else chooses to do is up to them- but I personally think it's an alltogether silly thing to do.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Very well said, Sam.

Emily

 

[bunnybunbunb]

And if you bought rabbits and breed them, maybe on thrid generation and find out the pedigrees where faked? Then what? I had a friend go through this, she sold her whole holland lop herd because she found out her original breeding stock's pedigrees where wrong. She was out hundreds. Would you do what she did? Or would you keep going until generation four?

I happened to find the Lionheads I wanted from someone who decided to not keep pedigrees on them. They bought non-pedigreed stock and plan to not keep pedigrees on what they breed. They also breed and show Holland Lops and Netherland Dwarfs. Are they considered a bad breeder for deciding to keep one breed unpedigreed while keeping three breeds pedigreed?

I never said I planned to breed and not keep their info. I wholey plan on pedigreeing them, when the line is along enough. I happened to find what I was looking for in rabbits without pedigrees. It is what I wanted, had they been pedigreed I would had bought them. But I am not going to pass up a rabbit of what I want, a good rabbit, just because it does not have a peice of paper with words on it. I can learn all I need to know just by keeping the rabbit around.

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

A pedigree is only a record of the lineage of a rabbit (or other animal). Just because a rabbit has a pedigree, doesn't mean it is purebred. It is not a guarantee of quality, a pedigreed rabbit is not always going to win in a show against an un-pedigreed rabbit. A pedigree says nothing about the health of the rabbits in the pedigree. If you are lucky, you will get a full 3 gen pedigree with tattoos, weights, colours, names and other info.

People put a lot of stock in a pedigree. Yes it is good to have one, but it should not be the only thing that influences your decision on buying a rabbit. The pedigree reflects more on the breeder than the rabbit. IMO, when buying a rabbit for show or breeding, you should evaluate the rabbit on it's own merit, then look at the pedigree. If all things are equal, then the pedigree should make a difference on which rabbit(s) you buy. You might want to avoid too much inbreeding in your lines, so would avoid a rabbit that is too closley realted to your current stock, or has inbreeding in it's pedigree.

I think one of the things that makes including health history in a rabbits pedigree is that many rabbits are bred before some things can show up. Dental problems might not show up until a rabbit is 2 year old and has already be breed. When it comes to dogs, reputable breeders don't breed until the dogs are tested for genetic issues. I don't know of those results are part of the pedigree, but some breeders to include it when you buy a puppy. Rabbits don't have the same tests avaliable, so most genetic stuff is not known until after the rabbit is bred. You have to hope that rabbits with issues are not bred once the problem is known, but not all breeders will track down each offspring to tell that owner of the problem.

As a pet owner, the pedigree doesn't really mean that much to me. I do find it interesting to know more about the lineage of my rabbits. 2 of my rabbits do have a pedigree, but I won't be using them for breeding.

 

[Erins Rabbits]

You're right- Not too much thought should be put into a pedigree. I know this. All I'm saying is that when a breeder doesn't keep records, they risk a lot in sales and in the respect of other breeders. I don't put a lot of thought into a pedigree- all I care is that they have one, and then I'll decide whether the animal is worth bringing into my herd. IMO it's just not worth the extra effort to sell and cull those rabbits you produce w/o a full pedigree. I have a hard enough time selling my himalayans. I've ended up stuck with crappy culls before, and it's not fun.

I won't buy a rabbit without a pedigree. That's all there is to it. It doesn't make a person a bad breeder, but I'll totally bypass an animal without a pedigree for one WITH a pedigree.

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

As a pedigree is just a record, it is only as good as the person keeping it. Someone who doesn't keep pedigrees, probably doesn't have good records of their rabbitry, breedings and other rabbit related stuff. A breeder who keeps good records, most likely has good pedigrees that are more reliable. Someone who has many litters needs to know which buck was bred to which doe so the pedigree can be accurate. IF they don't know who the buck it, then half the kits pedigree is wrong.

If I were buying from a breeder, even for a pet rabbit, I would at least want to see the pedigree. If a breeder does not have a pedigree for a rabbit they are selling as purebred, they are not worth my time or money. Even if they don't give a pedigree for pet quality rabbits, I would still want to know that is it there and to see it so I can see some of the history of the rabbit.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

I wouldn't buy a rabbit without a pedigree either, but that doesn't mean that there is stock out there that is good even without a pedigree.

On my pet stock, I do not give pedigrees with them, and so far I haven't had any buyers wanting to make sure they're pedigreed. The fact that I DO have the littermates pedigreed is enough for them to believe that I am not lying, and that the pet quality truly is a purebred animal.

Emily

 

[TinysMom]

I've used rabbits before that didn't have pedigrees and will continue to do so - IF - there are reasons for using that rabbit in my breeding program.

One of my first bucks in lionheads was known as "Blue Boy" or sometimes known as "Bob Whitman's Blue Boy".

That was it - no ear number - no pedigree from when he was imported. He was just known on pedigrees as "Blue Boy".

Third generation out - his offspring were purebred. When I bought him - Bob Whitman told me "Blue Boy is probably on 25% of the lionhead pedigrees in the country - at some point in the pedigree - because he was one of the early imports".

Nyx only has 1/2 pedigree. But she's a really nice rabbit. Does this mean I shouldn't breed her? Once again - 3 generations out - her offspring will be purebred.

If I was somewhere and someplace (even a pet store) was selling a rabbit that I felt was high quality and had something to offer my herd - I'd buy it in a heartbeat - quarantine it - and then breed it once to see if it gave me what I wanted.

I've learned to be "pedigree-blind". In other words - I don't care who the bloodlines are or what is on the pedigree until that rabbit has passed my hands-on inspection. THEN...I consider the pedigree - mainly to see who I would breed it to.

Let me give you an example...BlueBoy was known for throwing non-typey offspring that kept their mane - even the single manes. Cimmaron's Firebear was known for throwing typey rabbits that didn't keep their mane.

Because I knew certain things about those bloodlines - when I looked at pedigrees I would look to see if those two rabbits were in them.

Now Pam Nock will probably come in here and totally dispute me when I say what I'm about to say...but to me - a pedigree is mainly good for when I go to register my rabbit for championships (which is the one thing on a pedigree that WILL impress me) - and to keep track of who is who and what the bloodlines are.

Other than that - to me - a pedigree is simply a piece of paper that I have to keep track of (and do).

One other thing - I had two purebred rabbits that I bred together - both from great breeders....Island's Cousteau (who was also on many many pedigrees) and Wizzard's Ohana.

Over a period of time - all but one of the litter died of what appeared to be sudden heart failure. They were fine one minute - a bit later they'd act lethargic and be gone within a few hours.

Both rabbits had been bred to other rabbits and not had any issues. Both rabbits were pedigreed.

But still yet - somehow - when their genes combined - it was not a good combination.

So stuff like that can happen - pedigree or no.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

*applauds*

 

[Erins Rabbits]

I feel like it's different on breeds that are still in development. Definitely understandable, but, eventually, you do want a pedigree on your animals, no?

Idk, all I'm saying is that if I can afford to be picky, I'm going to be picky. For example, with Himalayans here, we don't have a lacking of quality stock. Here in AZ, we tend to be very competitive in the breed. There are only a few of us, but we take it seriously. This last year we've been very carefully linebreeding. So when I add a rabbit to the herd, I add the perfect one with something we're missing. But it's not like there's only one chocolate, or one rabbit with perfect sidelines- it's not as if I've got no option but a rabbit I see in the pet shop.

I'll use for this example, my chocolate buck. He's here to make a few chocolate babies to mix into our line. I'm not overly happy with his type, or his personality, but he has great chocolate coloring and markings. So, Here he is, adding in something we're missing- Chocolate. He truly is a parts animal and I'll pass him on once I've got what I need. I bought him from a reputable breeder in CA, one of the best in the Country, and one who keeps pedigrees. Had the animal not been pedigreed, I would have easily been able to find another rabbit with the same benefits and, yes, a pedigree.

Because we're a very small rabbitry and don't kill anything healthy/show quality, I simply can't afford to bring an unpedigreed rabbit into my herd. Nevermind what issues a pedigreed animal might have vs. an unpedigreed one, I only have roomto keep so many and the ones I keep WILL be pedigreed and show quality. Since we don't have a good outlet for culls since we won't sell pets, my option would be to push them onto other breeders- and as a responsible breeder, that's a whole different thing I wouldn't want to do.

Now I know unpedigreed animals can be great quality animals. And if you want to deal with it- I say go for it. And if you want to just buy pedigreed animals, the OP is completely right- you have to be aware that a pedigree doesn't guarantee anything and the health of your animal is very much reliant on you and the genetics, which are for the most part, unknown on any given animal. For all you know, there was a rabbit with a serious defect 20 generations back that'll pop up in your next litter- you just don't know, but the very same thing applies to non-pedigreed animals.

 

[bunnybunbunb]

I had a pedigreed buck from a long line with no problems, three generations at the breeder, who produced many litters that died with some does and other litters by other does who where fine. It turned out he had genetics that clashed with some does genetics and not others. One litter had neuralogical problems(I kept both due to the issues, luckly they showed up very young and where not rehomed before) but all the other litters that showed issues had digestion problems. The babies died before 4 weeks, usually while under 2 weeks.

Some things just come up. You can not know if there is an issue until you breed to every doe and breed their babies back to them. Even then you can not be 100% sure. It is a risk you take.

 

[TinysMom]

Erin,

I see your point - and it sounds like you're in a place where there are lots of breeders. That's great.

I'm not in that position - so if I see a rabbit with awesome type - even if it is in an established breed - I'll buy it - use it - pet out the majority of the first three generations from it (keeping only really good stuff) - and then - once I reach the point where the offspring can be considered "purebred" - I'd do it.

I don't think that makes me a bad breeder though - as I'm using that rabbit with a purpose in mind. I'm not just taking any old rabbit - but it has to be a rabbit I see strengths in that my herd needs.

Also - I'd be less likely to do this with a buck than with a doe...unless the buck was super awesome.

 

[Myia09]

I really understand that a pedigree isn't assurance, but question still stands, even though TinyMom stated it,

By saying that they don't really matter, it does open the door for backyard breeders. I do not think any pet store rabbit or animal should be bred. So by saying pedigrees don't matter, anyone can grab a rabbit from a farm store and breed them, and call them "purebreds" because they look the type of the breed; even if they dont' fit the standard.

I also agree with Erin about the fact it is also very different with breeds being developed; in a way its interferring with lionheads becoming a registerd breed because there are so many types out there.

And bunbunbunny, I do think its wrong for other breeders to mix other rabbits because they are pedigreed..however people like who are poducing velvet lionheads are doing so to create a standard and a breed, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Basically, people get a lot of crap on this fourm for accidental litters. Like, when my lionhead had a litter (who passed) from Pinball, I got a lot of flank for it!
I was irresponsible (Althouhg it was my vet who missexed chewy) And when I said I would like to breed her again - to another lionhead- for all reasons for myself, and I had four homes lined up (All friends) I got a LOT of crap! So I dont undestand what the difference is between you and I.

I do see if you might come across a great rex in a pet store you would want to breed; but then why is it most breeders so against a normal person (like me) wanting to do it? Because, what, I don't call myself a breeder?

 

[bunnybunbunb]

"Basically, people get a lot of crap on this fourm for accidental litters. Like, when my lionhead had a litter (who passed) from Pinball, I got a lot of flank for it!
I was irresponsible (Althouhg it was my vet who missexed chewy) And when I said I would like to breed her again - to another lionhead- for all reasons for myself, and I had four homes lined up (All friends) I got a LOT of crap! So I dont undestand what the difference is between you and I.

I do see if you might come across a great rex in a pet store you would want to breed; but then why is it most breeders so against a normal person (like me) wanting to do it? Because, what, I don't call myself a breeder?"

You never heard any crap from me Most breeders start out as pet owners, I think if the person is responsible they are well within their rights to experiment with whether they wish to take it up or not. The breeders giving you crap odviously forget where they came from, how they started. How exciting and wonderful it was. Everyone has to start somewhere and if everyone starting with pet quality rabbits for breeding was made to stop I doubt many of us, if not most, would not be here.

I think the slight diffrence is I started 10 years ago, back when I started there was few rabbit sites. The ones there was was small and we where all friends who helped each other. Now with sites like this, with so many people doing so many diffrent things, a lot of people will readily stand up and kick someone else down because they do not agree. You have to find where your friends are, learn to not listen to all the butt holes who do not understand, nor want to understand.

If a breeder says they breed for anything but themselves they are lying, or odviously not in it for the joy. I breed because -I- like it. I love my rabbits. I do not breed because such and such tells me to, just like I have not stopped breeding because people wish to tell me what a horrible breeder I am. I do it because I enjoy what I do.

 

[TinysMom]

Myia09 wrote:

But the purpose of a pedigree now a day is for showing the lineage for fur color, health, and other showing or breeding purposes.

How is the health shown on a pedigree? I've bought rabbits from great breeders - but either they threw bad teeth (which we didn't know they carried) or they produced rabbits with health problems when bred to the right (wrong really) rabbit.

I never see anything about health shown on a pedigree.

I understand people can just “write up” a pedigree…But that will make them a bad breeder and honestly I would never buy from someone who would do that.

And how do you know the difference between a fake pedigree and a real one?

I've heard of people faking pedigrees based upon rabbits they've seen on websites - yet they get by doing that for a while before anyone catches on.

What I don’t understand is your breeding (And others are as well) unpedigreed animals who you don’t know their family line so I don’t know how you can say they are “healthy?”

I don't understand why you think knowing family line = healthy? That's like saying apples = oranges.

I've seen rabbits with great pedigrees - that had health issues somewhere down the road - or they wound up carrying something that showed up later on in breeding.

I am not trying to be mean, I am trying to understand. Many animals can carry genetic deformities and illness without it being shown for a matter of a couple lines: This is especially true in Chinchillas.

I know Chinchillas are not the same in rabbits, or dog, or whatever.

But to me, to be a “Breeder” in the acceptable sense, I don’t know why the choice to breed unpedigreed animals is made…and not only unpedigreed, but poor quality breeds.

Because a pedigree does not make an animal "good". A pedigree is a reflection of that rabbit's history/ancestors and it is good for registering your rabbits if they win championships. Some things it will tell you - how much the ancestors weighed, their colors, etc. That is good for the genetics of colors.

But you can have a rabbit that has a pedigree that has a hidden deformity or issue - yet it still has a pedigree.

When I look at rabbits (any breed) - I don't want to know the pedigree - at least at first. I want to put my hands on that rabbit - to see how well it matches the standard. I want to examine it for potential health issues by checking its nose, etc.

But the pedigree? I really don't care about that until after I decide if the animal is a high enough quality for my herd.

Then I'll look at the pedigree to see if I know the lines or anything about them. For instance, maybe X lines tend to mature later...or Y lines are known for being typey but needing help with color. (This is where networking with other breeders and having a mentor help).

I honestly feel though like you're putting too much importance on a pedigree. Yes - it is important for recordkeeping and knowing who came from what.

But pedigree = history - not health.

I also understand Lionhead are not accepted into the ARBA yet, but there are tons of breeders trying to set a standard, and bunch of people ignoring efforts and breeding whatever can pass off as lionhead.

I don’t understand why someone would want to breed any rabbit that is so clearly off the standard – even if it isn’t fully regulated what the standard is-and this goes for everyone.

Because some people are not into breeding towards the standards or to improve the breed.

You wouldn't believe the number of people we have who come here (I've been here over 4 years) and they want to breed 'cause they love their pet rabbit and want babies or they just want babies - or they want some "quick" money because they think this breed or that breed will bring in some money since they sell fairly high. (Lionheads are dropping in price by the way - at least in many places).

Now I don't mean to be judgmental or sound harsh..but many times it is teenagers (especially girls) that we see saying, "I'm going to breed so I can have babies." They're wanting the experience of the babies without thinking things through. We also see it in adults - but I tend to see it more often in younger people. HOWEVER - let me also state that we have some AWESOME youth breeders who deserve our respect because that is not how or why they breed.

Most of the breeders who start out this way - don't stick with it for very long (at least not the ones I've seen on the forum).

“Pet quality” is something usually used if the rabbit for some reason just grew too much, had mis-coloring..not something intentionally bred?

So if your only breeding for “yourself” and not following ARBA standards what are you contributing as a breeder to the standard and the rabbit types that you breed?

Nothing. But then again - that isn't your goal if that is why you're breeding.

Maybe I have been in the Chinchilla world for too long, but you are simply a backyard breeder if you breed non pedigreed pets, that it is irresponsible. So I want to know why it is chosen to do by so many breeders I have seen on this forum.

I think you need to keep something in mind here. There is a difference between throwing two non-pedigreed rabbits together to breed them - and using a non-pedigreed rabbit because it has some strength that you need.

A rabbit can have hidden genetic issues whether it has a pedigree or not. Sometimes it might not come out for 2 or more generations. Having a pedigree on that rabbit doesn't guarantee its health.

The difference is I guess; is I am so used to the hard breeding of Chinchillas, who have usually on average only 2 kits a pregnancy, and carry a lot more problems that rabbits. Where health lines are dramatically far more important and people rely heavily on pedigrees and lineage.

I don't know if chinchillas are shown (please excuse my ignorance here) - or if there is a "standard" for them.

I think the difference is - in rabbits - I am looking for the type of rabbt that will help me meet that standard. The pedigree doesn't tell me the health - if I know enough about various bloodlines - it might let me know if this rabbit is from lines that mature faster or slower...and if the ancestors tended to weigh a lot or little. It tells me the colors. But it doesn't tell me diddly about health.

I bought a pet-quality Netherland Dwarf from a breeder here in Arizona. The lady bred only pet-quality, despite her now buying more show able breeders- he had a seizure that was “Dwarf” related (As said by my vet). In fact, upon contacting her, I found out that he had two siblings who also had seizures in the past!

Now, something in the doe x buck pairing (Unpedigreed) obviously produced seizures!

I had a Necropsies done on Pinball to make sure it wasn’t anything relating to just himself and there was no proof of anything to do with any pre existing ailment.

So if she keeps breeding the pair, of if someone else buys a baby and it continues to pass that, don’t you see a problem with that? And because they don’t have pedigrees, there is no way to tell that it exists.

I definitely would see a problem with that. But once again - that could not have been on a pedigree even if she'd had them.

As a breeder - it is HER responsibility to pull that animal from her herd...and not breed them. I shared earlier about having two animals that were excellent quality that produced offspring where four out of five died in the first year of some sort of heart issue. The father also appeared to have died of that later on.

Once I saw the problem - I never bred EITHER parent again. BOTH were pulled from my program. The same thing happened when I had Max Factor babies that were deformed - and the same thing happened when I had rabbits that turned out to have bad teeth. Those parents were pulled from my breeding program.

But having a pedigree didn't keep those things from happening! It didn't make those rabbits not give me litters that had issues.

And there is no way to tell even what your rabbit really is…how many times can we ask Pamnock “What is my breed?” lol…there is no way to tell for sure without a pedigree!

I've seen rabbits with a pedigree that made me doubt the pedigree...

I also don’t understand breeding if you’re not breeding to quality or perfection, because there are many many rabbits who don’t have a home at rescues or others who are “pet quality” and not pedigreed.

Because not all breeders breed for the same reasons. Some breed just for the money. Some breed just for having baby bunnies.

Here's the issue though - here on this forum we're here to educate and help people - but as much as it kills me sometimes - we're NOT the bunny police. We can't make people do what we know is best.

We face this situation time and time again when it comes to breeding, rehoming, rescue rabbits and more. There are times when people make decisions that we don't agree with - but we can't ban them from the forum because of their choices.

We can only share with them our recommendations and beliefs.

To me, its like taking a shelter bunny and breeding it. Wouldn’t we be against that? What about taking a bunny from a farm store and breeding? I never ever hear that “pet store animals” should be bred. It is always AGAINST them being bred. Isn’t that right?

I bought a rabbit from the feed store just for breeding. Bad bad Peggy....I know. But that rabbit was SOOOO typey..that my husband looked at her and said to me, "Peggy - how did a show rabbit make it here?"

And he doesn't know show rabbits like I know them.

I actually bought her for a friend who was working on chestnuts. She was awesome - and I showed her at more than one show...she almost won best of breed twice.

Does that mean I recommend breeding shelter bunnies or pet store bunnies or farm store bunnies? Not normally - but in this one case - it was worth it.

By the way - I was never able to get her to my friend as our car broke down and we finally decided to rehome her into a pet home. But she did well on the show table and I sometimes wish I'd kept her.

And last but not least; doesn’t that just make you another backyard breeder that we are all so against? When does breeding for quality, preserving the breed, just turn into a hobby and an overpopulation of rabbits? When does your brood doe just turn into another rescue bunny?

Breeders exist to preserve the standard; the breed. To produce quality animals for others. Not to simply breed, make money, and see cute babies. I thought that is something we all agreed on.

The day everyone on the forum can agree on something - I swear I will pass out or fall over dead or something.

What we've agreed on - is pretty much to respect each other and discuss. Sometimes we do wind up judging and sometimes that sends people away (when they could have stayed here and learned stuff).

I am not a breeder; I am a member of the ARBA and trying my hardest to learn about rabbit breeding and types. I never want to breed, but I know it is important. Please reply to this knowing I am wholeheartly confused and simply stating why this is going on, what seems to be such a contradiction to everything I have heard- and seeking opinions, not arguments.

Also I am adding that if a rabbits pedigree doesn’t have its health involved in it the argument that pedigrees are “pointless” is slightly valid. But the fact is, pedigrees should still exist because I don’t see how breeding pet store rabbits or rescue rabbits can be an acceptable, and pedigrees should be used, if not for health lineage, to point out that these rabbits were meant for breeding because they are a standard of the breed; not a pet store mutt. Plus, think how laborious breeding is and how your subjecting poor PETS to it, and before anyone gets “into” breeding for “themselves” understand you are subjecting animals to your “hobby” and putting their lives at risk- yes it may be something they do in the wild-but were not producing the conditions like in the wild.