Breeders Thoughts On Rabbit Bonding

[Troller]

In my research of rabbit raising it seems there are two schools of thoughts on the care taking of them. One side mentions rabbits being social animals and being so much happier with another rabbit (I'll call this group Social for ease of reference). The other side says that rabbits are territorial and while they do live together in nature it's more for protection and generally in the warren they have their own dens and a strict hierarchy and association is simply for breeding and survival (This group Territorial).

I've read a lot about this, and the more popular view is the Socials view especially online. But, neutering/spaying has a lot of influence in this view. Territorials on the other hand generally breed rabbits and of course it makes sense that they don't neuter/spay and so they see the more natural aspect of rabbits.

I want to know the opinions of breeders when it comes to bonding rabbits, especially if they're neutered/spayed. I read the blog of one, and correspond with another breeder (whom I highly respect) who discourage bonding as they say it puts undue stress on a rabbit. I read about the difficulty of bonding rabbits, the tricks of maintaining bonds, and the sometimes breaking of bonds and wonder if in the end it's natural to a rabbit.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree one way or another. It's just I look at other pets, like my birds who have no trouble in pairs, cats I've had in the past who most got along well or at least coexisted easily enough, and dogs who only once have I heard from a person who heard from another person didn't get along, and see that most times you have to force rabbits to be together. With hormones it's almost impossible but even without it seems like an artificial process.

So I just want to hear the opinions of other breeders since I pretty mich know where pet owners stand. Especially rabbitry owners who also have bonded rabbits. I'm not trying to prove one side wrong or the other, since I don't think there is a right or wrong here and rabbit care is a field, especially as pets, that is still evolving.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Troller wrote:

But, neutering/spaying has a lot of influence in this view. Territorials on the other hand generally breed rabbits and of course it makes sense that they don't neuter/spay and so they see the more natural aspect of rabbits.

I want to know the opinions of breeders when it comes to bonding rabbits, especially if they're neutered/spayed. I read the blog of one, and correspond with another breeder (whom I highly respect) who discourage bonding as they say it puts undue stress on a rabbit. I read about the difficulty of bonding rabbits, the tricks of maintaining bonds, and the sometimes breaking of bonds and wonder if in the end it's natural to a rabbit.

I think you answered your own question here.

I raise rabbits, but have also had bonded pairs in the past. Some domestic rabbits are naturally less dominant, so I could let some pairs of females exercise together in neutral territory without bloodshed. But that has always been the exception.

A lot of information on the internet is accepted, downloaded, shared and repeated as fact, whether it is or not. That could turn into a rather extensive rant all on its own so I'll avoid that just by pointing out that the popular opinion is often what we want to hear, not always the truth. If bonding were a natural behavior for domestic rabbits, human assistance wouldn't be quite as desperate and necessary, in my opinion. Much of training house rabbits involves breaking natural tendencies, like territorial behavior or chewing.

With that said, not much of a domestic rabbit's life is natural. So I don't think working on bonding is cruel or wrong. It's just not usually the tendency of unaltered domestic rabbits.

 

[agnesthelion]

I'm not a breeder but felt it important to add that it was made VERY clear to me on here in another thread that breeders "don't know, understand or even research bonding". I made a comment on said thread about how I thought it was interesting that this breeder we were discussing didn't even know that buns generally need to be fixed to be bonded.

When I made that comment there were very passionate responses from breeders that that ISN'T unusual. It was even stated that until they came to RO, they hadn't even heard about bonding.

So if you are looking for more in-depth opinions from breeders on bonding, according to what I was told in that thread. They don't know.

As far as your question, I have never read anything or heard anything to the contrary that rabbits aren't social animals. Breeders have one thing in mind and that is to breed. So you answered your own question there when you mentioned hormones play a part there. But as far as rabbits being social they most definetly are and I can speak from experience that seeing Agnes with her husbun is proof enough for me that she enjoys spending life with one of her own kind.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

:yeahthat: Sometimes opinions are like dogs, everyone I know that has one, has one that stinks. You get so many statements when you ask a question but most have little to do with your question and more about peoples interpretation of what you asked or their uniformed opinion. My experience with bonded bunnies is from a rescuers perspective--the only ones we've gotten were neutered--two males and two females. We also had some that you were not going to bond with anything, except maybe a rock--Commander Bun-Bun was a small 5 pound female and would attack any and all no matter the size. Bonding depends a lot on the bunnies themselves. As to the question of breeders, I don't feel that they have no or little knowledge but it's more of where their interests lie--so, they mostly wouldn't be interested in bonding.

 

[majorv]

Since I’ve been indirectly brought into this, I want to comment. Unaltered, I agree that bonding is pretty darn difficult. Personally, I wouldn’t try it. I would hope that breeders who sell mainly pets encourage owners to spay/neuter, and know enough about bonding to answer questions. Breeders who sell their rabbits for 4-H and FFA, and for showing, wouldn’t do this for obvious reasons.



More power to you if you want to bond altered rabbits, but as someone said, sometimes it doesn’t take much to break that bond…which tells me the bond developed between rabbits is, in general, fragile. I wouldn’t discourage trying though. I just don’t think it’s a rabbit’s natural instinct to bond with another rabbit…they aren’t human, and sometimes I think people try to force human qualities on animals that aren’t natural for them.

 

[woahlookitsme]

I am a very open person and accept usually all views especially in the bunny world. I have a pet bunny Rocky. He is an unaltered Britannia Petite. He does AWESOME on the show tables and so do his kids. After the hard job of showing I love to just cuddle with him and he loves to be petted. I wanted to get a french lop ever since I started showing rabbits and they make me melt every time I see them. I ended up recently purchasing one from a fellow breeder. He was the best rabbit I ever experienced because I saw sides of him that I dont with my show rabbits. He lived with me in huntsville and I had a perfect plan that I would get him and rocky fixed and then bond them. Well Rockys testes aren't going anywhere because a friend of mine still showed interest in breeding with him and having him neutered would be detrimental to his table career. I read a little on bonding and I knew what it took I just wasn't able to achieve it due to having to rehome my frenchie because of living situations. I got offended by some of lisa's comments. As I personally had looked into bonding and was planning on doing it being a 'breeder' myself. I also agree with what Julie said "If bonding were a natural behavior for domestic rabbits, human assistance wouldn't be quite as desperate and necessary, in my opinion." In order to bond some rabbit behaviors need to be dealt with and sometimes it is just never going to work.

When I was at convention the lady we were driving with said that the two jersey woolys (a boy and girl) were already bonded and had to go together. They stay in the same cage and only breed maybe once a year with each other. They become depressed if you try to take them away from each other and I found this too interesting! I assume it happened when she was trying to breed the two and she said when she tried separating them they never seemed happy until she put them back together and they have stayed that way since. I really think bonding is a special thing between two rabbits and I would love to experience it. But yes having two unaltered rabbits especially tans would not be a good thing lol.

Oh I almost forgot to add. I actually advocate spaying and neutering for pet bunnies. I tell pet owners when they actually do get a rabbit from me to spay and neuter if they have any behavioral problems. I have even had it done on rabbits and paid for it before I gave the people that rabbit.

 

[agnesthelion]

I got offended by some of lisa's comments

^^^please share what offended you

 

[Troller]

Thanks for the comments. I mean you can tell what direction the debate would head since logically yes, hormones=territorial, no hormones=less territorial...still though, a bond must be applied artificially. And yes, a rabbit living in the home is pretty artificial and hasn't had the millenniums worth of domestication done with dogs and cats.

I just love researching subjects, and with a field like rabbit care that has changed so much in a decade there is no clear answer since we're in new territory.

I'm musing all this because originally we we're not going to neuter my Conan the Bunbarian, or at lest we we're going to hold out. My wife however feels more comfortable with the idea of neutering him for his own happiness and I've been on the fence about it. But, she has a clear opinion, while I'm only 60-40 opposed on the matter. His behavior is good, he doesn't spray at 7 months, honks and smells only a little and is a great bun. But is he happy or frustrated I wonder. So with my wife weighing in more heavily then I we're most likely going to fix him in January. Don't want to do such a thing for Christmas you know

Add to which ever since we got our rabbit people who know us have been asking if we're interested in another rabbit because they know a so-and-so and want for them a good home. I'm not opposed to these requests, and I like the idea of another rabbit, but I often question my own desires and what's best for Conan. Heh It's a luxury issue I know but still I dwell on it.

If he wasn't fixed then there is no question he would remain alone with all the human attention he can get. But if fixed, hormones would no longer be a deciding factor. So then is it essential that they have company? I know a rabbit can be happy alone with loving owners but if those same owners had the space and the time is it cruel to deny them a rabbit friend or is it crueler to force one on them?

It's why I want to hear from breeders. They own rabbits both in their more natural state and possibly as pets. They can see it from both ends and at least share some perspective that the strictly pet owning set have. However, all opinions are welcome and thanks for sharing folks and more feedback is always welcome. I love this site because really there are so few true sounding boards out there that would discuss the subject fairly.

 

[Apebull]

I have no input on the to bond or not bond subject I think it's personal decision on what you feel is best for you and your bun. But I just had to say that you sound like my husband who couldn't understand why I felt that Twigs HAD to be neutered. I insisted he was fixed becausehe did spray and he did stink, but if it wasn't for that I probably wouldn't have done it. But since he is now fixed we will be getting him a wife this weekend.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Bravo April. We had two bonded males that weren't neutered when they came to us, but we did have them done as one was a sprayer. They were both exceptional bunnies, probably the two mellowest rabbits on earth.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

"Breeders have one thing in mind and that is to breed."

I think I speak on behalf of more people than myself when I respectfully disagree with this statement. My reasoning would go a bit beyond this thread, but suffice it to say that it may surprise you how much breeders and pet owners have in common- even their goals for their animals.

Troller wrote:

It's why I want to hear from breeders. They own rabbits both in their more natural state and possibly as pets. They can see it from both ends and at least share some perspective that the strictly pet owning set have. However, all opinions are welcome and thanks for sharing folks and more feedback is always welcome.

You are awesome! It's so refreshing to hear from pet rabbit owners who want to learn more about rabbits from everyone in the hobby. None of us know everything, and we are all still learning. However, those who raise rabbits have extensive experience caring for many different animals. This hobby encompasses everything from pets to show to commercial to sport rabbit projects, and many breeders have been exposed to all ends of that. In fact, many breeders started out as pet owners.

I know personally that my years with one or two pet house rabbits were wonderful and taught me a lot about rabbits. But I've learned so much more in the time I've been showing/breeding. It's a big world out there!

 

[KittyKatMe]

I agree. I think that if your rabbits do like eachother and bond, great, but I'd like to point out that good breeders know A LOT about rabbits, and obviously can't be spayed/neutered for obvious reasons. And good breeders do care and care for their rabbits. They breed to better the breed. I'd respect them, because you can learn a lot from them

 

[Imbrium]

I don't really see anything artificial about bonding rabbits - they WILL do it on their own *if* they start off together at a very young age (before they become hormonal and before either has established "their" territory). I literally just brought two girls home (Nala at 7 weeks old/Gaz at 8 weeks old) at the same time, stuck them in a cage together and they were GTG right up until their spay day at 5 mos old. they had some minor disputes right after the surgeries, but a couple hours in neutral territory (ie hanging out in my neighbor's kitchen) got them right back on track.

bonding gets trickier and requires a lot of human intervention when starting with adult bunnies (one of which has already thoroughly established part or all of their owner's home as "their territory"), but left to their own devices as babies, they'll happily bond with, snuggle up with, play with, share territory with and groom a companion bunny all on their own.

 

[Troller]

Imbrium wrote:

bonding gets trickier and requires a lot of human intervention when starting with adult bunnies (one of which has already thoroughly established part or all of their owner's home as "their territory"), but left to their own devices as babies, they'll happily bond with, snuggle up with, play with, share territory with and groom a companion bunny all on their own.

My sister bought two baby brothers who loved each other and were quite bonded up until the hormones started. She quickly fixed them then tried to rebond them for a time but it just didn't take. Now I know boys are the most difficult to bond, but I've read accounts where same and different gender babies failed to bond. Its all about temperament I read, and while age and gender do play a factor nothing is more decisive then the rabbits personalities.

Rabbits are the only pet animals who go on 'dates' for prospective companions. Other pet animals like cats and dogs do have dates but to find them owners, otherwise you can pretty much just connect them with another of their kind. To me it just comes off seeming that rabbit bonds are artificial and fragile relationship constructs.

Please don't take my statement to sound negative or insensitive, I'm just trying to observe the matter without my human sensibilities getting in the way. Often as pet owners we need to do things for the betterment of our animals that they don't enjoy (handling, giving medicine etc.). It sounds to me that bonding is one of those, a hopefully short stressful event that leads to long term happiness for fixed rabbits. I think April is right saying its a personal decision, I'm just mulling where I stand on it is all.

 

[agnesthelion]

They own rabbits both in their more natural state

^^^^^^^have you ever visited a breeder? I encourage you to do so. Backyard or reputable. There is nothing "natural" about it. Besides the pregnancy itself, everything is controlled, monitored and policed by the human. Learn about mating, where they are housed, how some breeders risk trying to see if a doe is pregnant, how many litters, the breeding buck, etc. If it's a reputable breeder breeding to better the breed, they most likely show. Visit and learn abput a rabbit show. There is nothing natural about car rides, stacked cages, tabling a rabbit.

And I'm not saying pet fixed rabbits are living naturally either, but this "natural" term or the phrase bonding is "artificial" seems to be thrown around as if it is relevant only in the pet world. That just isn't the case. And I'm not saying breeding is bad or having a pet rabbit is better either, so please no one jump all over that, I'm just saying they are different.

Breeders don't know "more" than pet owners and pet owners don't know "more" than breeders and alot of the times breeders don't have the perspective to see it both ways so I'm not sure what you mean there. That's evident by this thread alone. Breeders and pet owners have two different paths for their rabbits.

 

[agnesthelion]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

it may surprise you how much breeders and pet owners have in common- even their goals for their animals.
It's a big world out there!

Gee it is a big world. And how do you know mine or other people's experiences/knowledge of breeders?

I will respectfully disagree with your statement as well. I guess that's one thing we can agree on I have never met one breeder, in real life or on RO, who has the same goal for their animals that I do.

 

[whitelop]

I know this doesn't apply, but I DO have to take my dog on dates. But that is because he is a Dingo and very strange.

Don't wild rabbits live together in warrens, with a few of them in the warren? I think if anyone has rabbits close to their natural setting its people with bonded rabbits. Probably not breeders whose interests lie in "bettering" a breed, or showing.
Domestic rabbits aren't meant to live in their "natural" habitat, since they were made to be domestic. So natural now for them is living in peoples houses having food handed to them and possibly getting a friend if they choose they want one. I think rabbits are more complex than what we give them credit for.

 

[Troller]

Terminology gets a little crazy typing out. Domesticating a rabbit isn't 'natural', and I didn't mean to say Breeders keep rabbits in a more natural setting, just that by not fixing an animal its closer to its natural state. So pardon my use of the word as a lack of imagination trying to express myself properly.

I brought the topic up and asked mostly for a breeders persepctive because the amount of information from pet owners, rescues and socieities is staggering and I have what I believe to be a complete perspective on that side. However, breeders views aren't as thoroughly covered and seems there is more of a stigma to them voicing what they believe. I mentioned that I read the blog (though they don't share much) of one credible breeder and have the ear of another who I have visited the rabbitry. When I was younger I worked several different type farms and have an understanding of that too. So I'm not uninformed, just trying to always learn. Whoever mentioned breeding rabbits isn't natural either, true, but then as a society we have decided to domesticate, farm, etc. So we've long ago manipulated animals behavior past 'natural'. All I'm trying to see is a better picture of the notion of bonding, rabbits natural behavioral tendencies and what's the lesser evil. I've seen it go bad when people try to humanize an animal and try to make them something they're not, but Ive also seen it when a person lets animals go wild to their detriment.

I'd get into the whole fact many of the breeds of rabbits we enjoy wouldn't exist if not for breeding programs and purposeful selection so it is a vanity of sort to then blame them for raising rabbits unnaturally but we know that. So again, no insult meant by throeing the word naturally around, just again approaching the subject of rabbit bonding and are they truly social or forced to be so by outside factors.

 

[Troller]

Pardon the many grammar and spelling mistakes in my posts. Often I use my phone or kindle to post rushed messages during work breaks and transit so my ego won't let me go without typing that.

Rabbits in nature do live in warrens together. However they have rules. No outsiders for instance, any outsider is either chased off or killed. That was found out when exterminators tried to kill rabbit 'pests' by introducing rabbits virus carriers. It didn't work, and and it's not a practice because of rabbits being territorial.

Even in their warrens, indiviual rabbits have their own dens and a very strict rabbit heiarchy is maintained. Rabbits who don't respect the heiarchy (such as wandering in to the wrong den or trying to breed with an alpha's rabbit) are beaten into submission or killed. This is nature.

Obviously these are rabbits who are not fixed and do not have humans manipulating their dynamics. Bonding is this type of behavior in micro, but we never let it get as far as it does in nature. But even so, what if we didn't seperate rabbits when we tried to bond them? How many would kill the other or bully them savagely into submission? It's a notion worth considering at the least to better understand what it is we're doing to our pets.

I'm really starting to come off as an opponent to rabbit bonding, which isn't my intent as I want to do it myself, but I understand that I want it for me and hope it would make my rabbit happier in the process. But again, this is not about my present opinions, I want to hear other opinions and schools of thoughts on the subject presented in a friendly environment (we're all still friendly I hope ).

I read about a few breeders who breed in a colony method, where they keep their rabbits outside in an area where they let them live in a warren as close to what they would in nature. Yet is sounded confused, because it still involved seperating certain rabbits and other behavior I didn't quite get. I'm not sure why I bring it up other then it's interesting and presents further cases or rabbit cohabitation being altered to suit a human purpose.

 

[majorv]

agnesthelion wrote:

They own rabbits both in their more natural state

^^^^^^^have you ever visited a breeder? I encourage you to do so. Backyard or reputable. There is nothing "natural" about it. Besides the pregnancy itself, everything is controlled, monitored and policed by the human. Learn about mating, where they are housed, how some breeders risk trying to see if a doe is pregnant, how many litters, the breeding buck, etc. If it's a reputable breeder breeding to better the breed, they most likely show. Visit and learn abput a rabbit show. There is nothing natural about car rides, stacked cages, tabling a rabbit.

And I'm not saying pet fixed rabbits are living naturally either, but this "natural" term or the phrase bonding is "artificial" seems to be thrown around as if it is relevant only in the pet world. That just isn't the case. And I'm not saying breeding is bad or having a pet rabbit is better either, so please no one jump all over that, I'm just saying they are different.

Breeders don't know "more" than pet owners and pet owners don't know "more" than breeders and alot of the times breeders don't have the perspective to see it both ways so I'm not sure what you mean there. That's evident by this thread alone. Breeders and pet owners have two different paths for their rabbits.

It's pretty obvious you have a closed mind with regard to breeders. You made your point, right or wrong. Lets move on and stay on topic...