Bladder stone confusion

[RandomWiktor]

I'm hoping some folks experienced with bladder stones can help.

There is a chance that our rabbit Lucy may have bladder stones requiring surgery (we'll know tomorrow). Our vet said that she had stones because we feed her leafy greens. I don't really understand this. Everything I've read suggests that when a rabbit has sludge or stones, pellets should be reduced to a bare minimum, and hay and greens should be upped as long as the greens aren't super high in calcium. Yet the vet thinks we should give her a mostly pellet diet after the surgery. I don't want this problem coming back because it is going to be VERY expensive. So I want some EXPERIENCED opinions. It's not that I don't trust a person with a medical degree to give good advice, but I do know that some outdated info on rabbits is floating around out there. So assuming some of you may have be in the know, I'm looking for clarification.

Thanks.

 

[ra7751]

Calcifications come from many things...as with people, some rabbits are prone to sludge/stones. The feeling in the past has been a diet too high in calcium was the cause. We nowknow that isn't the cause. It's more the artificial diet and environment. In a natural environment, rabbits eat primarily greens such as grass and leaves. They usually don't even drink water since they get their hydration from the greens. I don't even give my rehab rabbits water....they eat a natural diet. Because of the artificial diet and environment we keep our rabbits in....most rabbits are clinically dehydrated and most get very little Vitamin D. Vitamin D comes from two sources.....exposure to unfiltered sunlight and/or dietary supplements. Lack of Vitamin D adversely affects how the body absorbs and uses calcium. In animals it leads to a condition known as Metabolic Bone Disease (it affects all body systems...not just the bones) and people get Osteoporosis. My first response to sludge/stones is lots of hydration. I also tend to acidify the urine with different products. Movement also helps. Anti-inflammatories can also be of help. In the case of large stones, surgery may be indicated. Another source of this is mineral content in the water. We all need certain minerals but there can always be too much of a good thing. Before making a decision on surgery, I would certainly get a good x-ray of the abdoment. Calcium deposits will "light up" an x-ray and be quite easily visible.

Randy

 

[RandomWiktor]

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it. The rabbit is to be x-rayed tomorrow morning.

We do have VERY hard water. What would you think about:
1. Using tap mixed with distilled
2. Having daily outdoor grazing
3. Increasing sources of acidity in the diet (is cranberry in moderation acceptable for this?)
4. More hay, more VARIED greens, less pellets

 

[tonyshuman]

Those sound good to me, but you might consider getting a water filter for yourself and the bunnies instead of adding distilled. It would probably be cheaper.

 

[RandomWiktor]

Thanks for all of the feedback, but I actually have GREAT news! Last night it really seemed it may be stones because even after a gut stimulant and fluids, she still had little harm lumps in her abdomen. But, she passed even more waste this morning and the lumps are gone - it was just some hard poos! She hadn't been drinking enough with her mouth sore from bad molars (which is why she was at the vet) and just needed to rehydrate. No bladder stones, what a relief, and no sign of sludge or crystals in her urinalysis anyways!

That being said, this ordeal gave me food for thought, and I'm glad our buns will be outdoors grazing all day after the move

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

Your vet is right. Those of us the feed a pellet based diet 9with little or no veggies at all) seldom have any issues with bladder sludge. I would say, give his advice a try and see if it works. Seems to be a problem in rabbits that are fed a veggies and greens based diet. that could also be the cause of the tooth and digestive problems too.

 

[TreasuredFriend]

Sylvia, silver new zealand "street babe", was diagnosed with bladder stones. Verified on the x-rays after she'd be squatting and passing blood. As Randy mentioned, the stones were obvious and "lit up"! Dr. B. also felt them during palpation. Surgery occurred and 1 rock, nearly thumb-diameter bladder stone, was removed, a teensy stone as well. Our vet advised NO pellets, or just a smidge.

Sylvia receives 98% low calcium greens and veggies such as romaine, cilanto, green leaf, endive, and yellow, green or red peppers. Less than 1/16th cup of Oxbow BBT pellets qualifies as a pinch, once a day. That's it. Plenty of water. She was vet-checked a year later and cleared from reoccuring bladder stones.

Bladder stone surgery and the diagnosis visit, radiographs, post recovery ran $750.

Unlimited timothy hay, low calcium greens, ample exercise and hydration, and a smidgeon of pellets. Sylvia is an 8 lb. housebun.

=====

Here's a tapeworm picture from the flea that Karla ingested outside getting wheelchair/leg strengthening therapy in the grass.
http://www.linedgroundsquirrels.com/TapewormParasite.html

At the vet clinic this past week, our vet mentioned a lil' bun that came in with fleas (easy to treat) and several cuterebra from nibbling in the grass. One under her neck area.

Hope this adds another personal experience to those who've replied ~

 

[ra7751]

Glad things are working out. Really concerned any time a vet prescribes a gut stumulant for a rabbit. Not the best idea...in my non-professional opinion.

As far as a pellet based diet and no link to bladder sludge is just luck. There is so much old and outdated information still out there....and even still in print in the manuals that vets use (and they do still use one in particular that contains a lot of misinformation). A diet primarily based on pellets usually lead to obesity, GI concerns and dental issues.....many times painful molar spurs since pellets require almost no chewing....and chewing is what wears the teeth down. As I have mentioned, there are a lot of things that have to come together to form sludge.....and unfortunately they come together too often. But the artificial diet we feed (pellets) has a lot to do with it. Look at wild rabbits.....I can tell you from personal experience that they never suffer from bladder sludge....and they eat the diet that nature intended and that is grass and tender vegetation. A diet primarily based on pellets will neither cause nor prevent sludge...it's much more complicated the just pellets.

Randy

 

[Pipp]

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:

Your vet is right. Those of us the feed a pellet based diet 9with little or no veggies at all) seldom have any issues with bladder sludge. I would say, give his advice a try and see if it works. Seems to be a problem in rabbits that are fed a veggies and greens based diet. that could also be the cause of the tooth and digestive problems too.

You're entitled to your opinion (even though I believe it to be flat out harmful), but this is certainly not the diet or philosophy sanctioned by this board.

In fact it's very apparent in my experience (and I'd venture to say most others) that the exact opposite is true.

I will not continue the argument in this thread so please don't even respond. We've both said our piece.


sas :grumpy:

 

[pamnock]

I agree that diet may not be the major factor, however genetic predisposition can be a factor in how the foods the rabbit eats are metabolized. Health issues such as bladder diverticula (which can be congenital) may affect how well the bladder empties and whether or not a buildup of minerals is retained.

It's a complex problem with no easy solution, however, I have never heard of greens being the primary "cause". However, it is recommended to cut back on high mineral greens such as spinach if the rabbit has developed bladder sludge.

Rabbits generally metabolize and excrete minerals efficiently, but when problems develop, a change in diet may offer some relief.

 

[ra7751]

Well said Pam.

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

Pipp wrote:

You're entitled to your opinion (even though I believe it to be flat out harmful), but this is certainly not the diet or philosophy sanctioned by this board.

In fact it's very apparent in my experience (and I'd venture to say most others) that the exact opposite is true.

I will not continue the argument in this thread so please don't even respond. We've both said our piece.


sas :grumpy:

And you are allowed to share your experiences and opinions, it would be nice if I were allowed to share mine. I am going to have to agree to disagree with you, because my experiences are the exact opposite.

OP are you using a bottle? if you are maybe you should try switching to a heavy crock instead. It would help the bunny stay more hydrated. Sometimes rabbits don't get enough water from them for some reason.

 

[fluffybunnytails]

Hi , i am new to this site but have kept bunnies for 7 years.

flippy, my netherland dwarf is almost 8. In march he had an op to clean out his bladder of sludge, I think it is called a cystomasty ?. He neededa lot of nursingcare for three weeks after but he is fine now. I have his bladder felt every month to see if there is any change.

Flippy does eat spring greens/cabbage. Although this does have a moderate amount of calcium in it its also mainly water which helps to flush the calcium out. i avoid veg which has high calcium content such as carrot tops. . I got a list from the internet of food which contain high, moderate and low calcium.(see below)I also syringe flippy with water a couple of time a day now to keep him flushed out.

If your bun does like his peletted food perhaps you could swap to a low calcium one like Oxbow bunny basics T, or Allen and Page

FEEDING RABBITS WITH URINARY TRACT PROBLEMS

Rabbits with urinary tract problems such as kidney stones, bladder stones and 'sludgy urine' can benefit from a diet that contains sufficient, but not excessive amounts of calcium and is low in phosphorus. An increase in water intake and urine flow is beneficial to dilute excreted calcium in the kidneys and bladder.

INCLUDE:
Fresh Grass. This is the ideal food for rabbits, it has a high water content and has the correct amount of calcium and phosphorus.
Fresh Greens. These are mostly water and will therefore increase water intake which is beneficial. mostly, choose plants from the moderate and low calcium groups although the occasional plant from the high calcium group won't hurt.

High calcium plants: kale, broccoli, Chinese cabbage, watercress, parsley.
Moderate calcium plants: cabbage, spring cabbage, celery, lettuce, most culinary herbs and many garden weeds that rabbits enjoy such as raspberry, bramble leaves, leaves from fruit trees, ground elder, young dock leaves, groundsel, chickweed.
Low calcium foods: peas, beans, bread, banana, apples, carrots.
Wild plants such as dandelion, goosegrass, yarrow and plantain have diuretic properties ie they increase the flow of urine. Although these plants have a high calcium content they also have a high water content and are enjoyed by rabbits and are beneficial for rabbits with urinary tract problems.

Only offer SMALL amounts of a pelleted or extruded food especially if the rabbit is overweight. Dry foods have no water content.

Small quantities of fruit juice containing Vitamin C might be beneficial. Fruit juices are sweet and palatable and therefore increase water intake. Theoretically, they could also acidify the urine and decrease the amount of sediment that is formed. Cranberry juice is a traditional remedy for bladder problems but apple, pineapple or blackcurrant juice can be used instead.

AVOID:
Mixed cereal rations. Cereals, such as sweetcorn, wheat, oats and barley have a high phosphorus content that is potentially harmful.

(Green oat hay is alright as is oat/wheat grass as it’s just the seed part that is high in phosphorus).

Alfalfa in any form.
Vitamin or mineral supplements that go in the water or on the food.





Barb x

 

[ra7751]

As I have mentioned many times, we feed primarily an artificial diet. Most domestic rabbits are clinically dehydrated (and overweight)due to pellets. All you have to do to find proof is look at wild rabbits. They eat a natural diet of grass, leaves and tender vegetation. I have never seen a wild rabbit with bladder issues (and I have treated thousands of cottontails) and I have never seen one that is overweight. In rabbits, calcium is metabolized differently than other animals and over half of calcium intake is excreted thru the renal system. Dehydration slows the flow thru the kidneys and bladder and you get sludge/stones. When you combine both dehydration and lack of Vitamin D (either from lack of unfiltered sunlight, poor diet or both)....the calcifications start. Some rabbits are prone, just like humans (from a lot of personal experience) to calcifications. I had a rabbit that never had anything other than Oxbow BBT and their timothy or orchard grass hay (I used Oxbow at the time) and his bladder stayed full of sludge and stones. I have rabbits that eat nothing but alfalfa or other high calcium food and don't have urinary issues. The clincially proven method of properly controlling calcifications in the urinary system is a proper diet (limited pellets with greens and unlimited hay)and sufficient hydration. Pellets should not be considered a "complete food" despite the producer's claims. Pellets were originally designed as a way to quickly add weight to meat and lab rabbits. When that market fizzled, now it' suddenly a complete food. But in a clinical situation, a diet based primarily on pellets is inappropriate and can lead to obesity, renal system issues and dental problems. And this contention is from blood chemistries...not casual observations.

Randy