Bella is mysteriously skinny

[bellapsyd]

I have been concerned about Bella's weight. On Aug. 14 I took me to the vets and she was skinny, but still "ok" 4.6 lbs. We had a blood panel drawn and everything looked ok. Her teeth were also looked at. She am not fixed. (Long story as to why, but I want to fix her though!).
Well yesterday (January 2) the vet that comes to our house to take care of our parrots and cut the bunnies nails felt Bella and said "holy sh!t she's skinny!". So I hopped on the people scale holding Bella and w/o Bella...looks like she weighs 3 lbs. So in 4.5 months she have long 1.6 lbs- 38% of her body weight!!!
I am panicking. We don't know what's wrong. Bella is all skin and bones. She is gross feeling! She eat tons, drink tons (always have), play, cuddle and kiss like normal! The vet felt Bella and said he feels no tumors in her reproductive organs (I was worried about cancer).
So am estimating her age between 4-6 years old.
Other than DRASTIC weight loss, she has no other symptoms!!! HELP!!!


***UPDATE*****

Vet results so far:



The vet wants to do this in stages.
Bella has a type of fur mite, but that is secondary. It is being taken care of right now. The vet also collected some stool samples to test for parasites.

She is to eat critical care 2x a day in addition to her regular foods and must have pellets as well.
She checked out ok in the physical. Her heart and lungs and tummy were listened to and were ok! There were no lumps or tumors felt in her either.
Two of her teeth are a little bent and pointy and she have a bone lump under my jaw- may be a growth. However, again the vet thinks this is secondary since ahe am eating perfectly fine!

He took blood and Monday I should have the results. 4.5 months ago when blood was taken her liver values were a little off and she was anemic, but nothing major. the vet passed them as normal. He wants to recheck and see if it is something that progressed and that was just the beginning. Depending on what the blood panels show, she may have X-rays and may take care of her teeth.

The bunny vet is stumped. I am not sure if it is a good thing (i.e. not the usual scary problems) or a bad thing!

It may be cancer, but she is not showing any other typical signs and we estimate her to be at 4-5 yrs old.
He is going to see if it maybe a metabolic or digestive problem. Clearly she am taking in food and the nutrients aren't getting to her!

We go back to the vets in 2 weeks for a fur mite shot again and Monday I will have the blood work up




Any help on a possible diagnosis would be appreciated!

 

[Maureen Las]

It sounds like the vet is doing all the approriate things to make a diagnosis. I don't think that we can guess at it as it does sound like something covert .

I would only question the tooth examination . The hard mass on the jaw could be an abscess.
Sometimes vets will use an instrument to attempt to visual the teeth while the bun is awake and not under anesthesia. These types of exams are not reallythorough and the pointy teeth may be bothering her. She cannot tell us. In order to really get a good exam of the teeth x-rays should be taken

buns that have kidney problems lose weight and eat and drink a lotbut that is something that would show up in the labwork. Usually a bun with kidney issues would show some other symptoms but not always.

If you have 5 buns areyouabsolutely sure that she is eating as much as you think???

If she is eating huge amounts and losing weight and doesn't have dental issues then she could have a parasite, cancer, kidney problems or ???

You have done the right thing in having her examined and hopefully you will get some results that you can do something about.
i know this is a hard time for you... waiting for results :hug:

 

[bellapsyd]

Thanks for the reply! I am certain she is eating as she is kept separate (not all the buns are bonded), so I am able to keep an accurate eye on her food intake. She is resting and avoiding me now after the vets!

 

[Pipp]

Your vet sounds great. Diagnosing in stages is definitely the way to go IMO. Throwing all kinds of tests at her at once is expensive and not always necessary.

I think the vet has pegged the most likely -- parasites, dental, internal issues, etc.

How long have you had her? Any diet changes lately?
Is she a short faced bunny?

It's very hard to diagnose dental without an x-ray, and weight loss while appearing to still be eating is a symptom, they're not chewing their food properly for the best nutrition I think. I'd be the most suspicious of that issue -- the spurs and lump, although the mention of liver abnormalities gives me pause.

Is it possible she's older than you think and this is age-related wasting?

The next round of testing should tell the tale. In the meantime I'd highly recommend giving her a little bit of Nutri-Cal daily, a calorie supplement for cats and dogs that works great for rabbits. They make it in a malt flavor.

Also, a reminder to make sure you soak the Critical Care for at least 10 minutes, if not 30. It really absorbs a lot of liquid, and you don't want it sucking any up from the gut.

Hope you get to the bottom of it soon and its a simple fix.


sas :goodluck

 

[bellapsyd]

it is possible she is much older than we think- I hope it is not age related wasting- I really want to be able to fix this and "fatten" her up.

What will Nutri-cal give her that critical care won't? Can I find it at the petstore? And by soaking the critical care, what exactly do you mean? My vet told me to mix it with a tiny bit of pumpkin and water so it becomes a paste. How can I do it your method? (want to make sure I am doing everything right)

 

[Maureen Las]

Critical care has directions on it on how to mix it but if you only add the amount of water that is stated it will be really gluey and thick. What Pipp means is that critical care absorbs a lot of water . if you mix it quickly and feed it immediately the tiny particles will not have time to absorb the water that you mixed in. If it is in the rabbit's tummy it will absorb fluids from the GI tract itself which is the last thing you want. When you mix it.. mix in a lot of water and then let it sit in a bowl for awhile ( a half hour is good) By this time the critical care particles will already have absorbed the water that you added. if you want to mix in pumpkin that's fine too but you still have to mix with water.

it takes awhile to "get the hang" of critical care. I feed this stuff to Beau everyday and pretty much have it down by doing it so much. in the beginning I was not mixing in enough water.

nutrical is a food supplement marketed for dogs and cats . it can be used in a bun who is not eating to give energy, vitamins, and stimulate appetite. I usually buy the tube for cats at a petstore like petco or petsmart or you could order it on-line.


it is sometimes easier to get a small amount down a rabbit so it is concentrated energy.
I have given nutrical by rubbing it on a rabbits leg ..I mean really rubbing it in (the bun thinks I'm petting him)so they don't flick it off and then the bun is forced to clean it off himself.

Pretty mean but you do what you have to do when a bun is sick
My bun Beau (dental patient)eats critical care on his own mixed with oxbow BBt. he thinks it tastes good..sometimes I give pumpkin too,
if your bun likes critical care that would be great. apple banana is better than anise flavored

 

[ra7751]

Umm....a few thoughts here. First, do you know what drug is being used to treat the fur mites? I suspect it is Ivermectin. Ask your doctor about using Revolution as it also gets some other parasites as well. A fecal is notoriously inaccurate. If I suspect worms (and they are nearly always there)....I treat for them. Usually it's with Fenbendazole since it seems to be the most broad spectrum. SomethingI would look carefully for is coccidia.....and these little protozoa do show up well under a microscope....but they are a bit tougher to properly treat. And oddly enough, hormonal issues in non-spayed girls can also cause these concerns.

Critical Care is one of only a couple of Oxbow products I will use....but you can make your own version that is just as effective and much less expensive....but it is still an excellent product. The main problem I have with Critical Care is that it is like a sponge inside the gut....it just craves water. So make sure it is mixed with lots of water and supplement hydration....by sub-q if necessary. Make sure you are using canned pumpkin. Do not use the pie filling.

I am not big on Nutra Cal....aka Fat in a Tube. Not saying it won't help....I just prefer to increase calories by food. Any type of paste type supplements pull more fluids from the gut. I usually increase weight by increasing pellets or high calorie foods such as kale, dandelions and carrot greens as well as adding alfalfa hay. All these thing should be added in small amounts, one at a time and in moderation. Weight is a dicey thing in rabbits....due to the way they metabolize fat, weight should be increased or decreasedslowly.

There is a vitamin supplement, B Comp, that your vet can administer that will stimulate the appetite and will just generally be a "kick in the powderpuff"....it really gives them a jump start. I use this a lot with sick animals. I do not use any vitamins that are put in the water as you just get contaminated water.

There is also one other thing that is of concern to me.....lump+jaw=concerns. While we usually assume that if there is a dental problem that they won't eat.....I can tell you from personal experience, that isn't necessarily true. I have had one rabbit with a molar spur that punctured the top of her mouth....and another with a golf ball sized lump in his jaw....and they never missed a beat with food. I might move this issue up the list of things to check.

I would also suggest doing a titer for EC during the blood work. This will require sendinga blood panel out to a qualified lab. Reduce kidney function, common with EC infections, can lead to sudden weight loss. The liver is also affected by weight loss as it metabolized fat. Slightly elevated liver values are expected due strictly to the stress involved in travel to the vet clinic. Like our blood pressure, an accurate measurement is not a one time test but rather a series of values acquired over a period of time.

There is one other thing that I am seeing more and more of. Is Bella an indoor rabbit? I am seeing more and more issues that are much more common in wild animals that are "cared for" by well meaning but untrained people. It is very common in squirrels, opossums and birds but we do see it in rabbits too. It is caused by a lack of Vitamin D. A lack of this vitamin can cause Metabolic Bone Disease.....something like rickets in humans. In animals, the most common presentations are weight loss, fur loss, lethagy and sometimes it advances to seizures. Vitamin D is usually manufactured by exposure to unfiltered sunlight. If possible, alllow her exposure to direct sunlight for at least 20 minutes per day. If that isn't possible, look into a "solar simulator" (once called a sun lamp). A full spectrum light is best but you really want UVB rays. These lamps are commonly use with reef aquariums and reptiles. Not interested in heat....just the rays. Light therapy is used quite a bit in humans now. And keep in mind that most windows used in homes have filters to prevent certain spectrums of light from entering your home (causes dyes to fade) so just opening the curtains doesn't usually do the job.There are also some supplements that can be used should this be a concern. Evidence of MBD can be seen on the blood panels.

Will be interested in what the blood panels have to say.

Randy

 

[bellapsyd]

more detailed Bella update::
As of right now- it looks like she has either a metabolic problem or a virus. Her liver values were elevated and her white blood cell count was low. My vet mixed up a concotion of milk thistle, echinacea, some other herb, and dandelion root. She is to be syringed 0.30 of this 2x a day for 4 weeks and then go back. It is for her immune system. I'll actually be back there in 2 weeks (2nd mite shot) so hopefully I'll have some good news to report in 2 weeks (like she gained weight!)
Her WBC was 5700 mid august. It is 2500 now!
Her liver values were 52 mid august now they are 84!
So, not sure of a dx yet, but making progress....


She is very active and she seems to like her herbal mix! She just need to get FAT! Well, not fat...

 

[pumpkinhead]

Is there no way that the lump under the jaw could be an abscess? I know that abscesses can cause a change in liver values and a drop in the WBC count as they tend to migrate to the abscess and not circulate well in the body.

Just a thought.

 

[bellapsyd]

thanks pumpkinhead- I will definitely bring that up to my vet!

 

[Maureen Las]

Does your vet practice both western and alternative medicine. ?

I would be somewhat anxious to get this diagnosed...
sounds like your vet is attempting to strenghten his immune system and organ systems but I would be somewhat concerned without a diagnosis

 

[bellapsyd]

^ yup, vet practices both

Ness Exotic Wellness Center in Lisle, IL

 

[Maureen Las]

I saw him once when he was still at Midwest Exotics and once after he went on his own. I am a tranplantto Wifrom Chicago

Ihad a feeling that you were seeing him....

 

[bellapsyd]

yes! Been to MwE. I see him now that he is closer to my home. I also see Dr. Horton at Animal 911 for my bunny Raffie with liver problems (when he was at the shelter, she was his vet, so I felt it would be best to stick with her regarding his issues).

 

[Maureen Las]

I have mixed feelings re. Dr Ness"s approach
I didn't feel that way prior to him leavng Midwest when he used straight western methods
I feel that herbal treatments can be used to strengthen organ systems and improve the immunesfunctioning if you are educated in it (which he is)

but I wouldn't feel comfortable letting weeks go by on herbal remedies without a diagnosis
My friend had a negative experience with him with a rabbit with severe dental issues affecting the bun's eye
Dr Ness gave herbal remedies but the bun eventually just had dental work done somewhere else and was seen by an opthamologist.
the problems could never have responded to herbal remedies.


if Dr Ness feels that the problems is truly a virus then it makes sense as there is really not treatment for viruses other than supportive care.

or if he feels that nothing else can be done then I can see it
butI would suspect a more tangible problem than a lingering virus.

for ex ..did the fecal results come back?
also why didn't he do x-rays looking for masses etc.
what about the lump under the jaw ?

what about the "pointy teeth" ??


my friend goes to 911 a lot andI believe that she has mentioned Dr Horton . I never used 911 but ifBella doesn't improve quickly then maybe you could get a 2nd opinion
Ihave really mixed feeling re. Ness

since I'm not a vet this is just an opinion.
Maureen

 

[bellapsyd]

I felt a little worried as well, however Bella's second mite shot in on the 17th, so I will have her weighed then. If there is no improvement, then I will be taking her for a second opinion.

Her fecal culture came back fine.

I *think* he is working on the least invasive method, on inward.

Thank you for your words of wisdom, I will definitely be taking them to heart when I reevaluate on the 17th.

I think she feels a tad bit meatier...but that could be wishful thinking?

 

[Maureen Las]

I really hesitated to say anything about Dr Ness as he really confuses me. When he was at Midwest I thought he was really great but after the episode with Hannibal 's (rabbit) teeth I thought that maybe he is trying to convince himself that the homeopathic stuff is going to work because HE wants it to
I think it does work........ but more as preventive medicine or supportive care .
If bella improves with him I honestly will eat my words as I think that he a nice man and is well-meaning.

 

[bellapsyd]

I am hoping! I will be updating!

 

[bellapsyd]

it's been 2.5 weeks and bella has gained a pound! Her official one month checkup is the 31st! I will update then, but she is visibly gaining!

 

[Maureen Las]

:highfive:Great!!!