Behaviour Between 2 Neutered Males

[DJSiddall]

Hey Guys,

I'm looking for advice and answers regarding my 2 male Netherland Dwarfs (George & Dexter) im currently bonding them.

George (White) is 4 and was neutered on December 11th 2013, Dexter (Black) is 6 months and was neutered on Jan 13th 2014

I have been trying them for short amounts of time in the bath they seem to get on ok no fights, however after a while they will circle each other (nose to tail) i know this can cause them to fight so i stop them when they do this and put them back in their cages.

There has been a bit of fur pulling but they have NOT had a fight at all i just feel that they maybe trying to fight all the time (maybe arguing over dominance) Dexter has groomed George and Dexter seems to bow his head into Georges side, is he trying to get a quick bite or is he asking George to groom him? they have sat near each other where they are touching each other (i have a picture of them, see attachment) but after some time they'll try humping each other and end up circling.

The first time i put them in the bath it went well for at least half an hour before the circling started, they did manage to hump each other a few times are the sessions too long? am i doing something wrong? is it going well?

Sorry for the long thread.

Please give advice.

Thanks

Simon

 

[whiskylollipop]

Hormones take about 6 weeks to fully dissipate, perhaps it would help to take things slow for now since Dexter got neutered recently. If Dexter is the one doing most of the grooming, it sounds like George is the clear dominant bunny, but Dexter's hormones are still leading him to pick fights with George. Pushing his head into George's side is probably biting - if he wanted to be groomed he would put his head under George's head.

I've never heard of bunnies circling each other as a prelude to fighting though. The closest I can think of is when my two boys circle, running, in excitement when they know they're about to get some yummies. I don't have much experience in bonding bunnies, but I'd hazard that they may just be playing or getting to know each other - though if you know that it will lead to fighting, then yeah break it up. Hopefully a more experienced member will be along soon to help you more with this!

But imho... right now if things are going relatively smoothly with no fights, despite one bunny possibly still being hormonal, I'd say things are going pretty well. Intermittent humping is normal. All you need is time and patience.

 

[rabbit_friend]

Aw, what a sweet couple. Dexter reminds me of my little black dwarf that I lost in October :-( It sounds like things are going really well between them! You are doing all the right things -- getting them neutered, stopping unproductive behaviors (like circling), giving them enough time in the session to get to know one another. I agree that if Dexter is doing most of the humping and being too active a "pursuer" and irritating or intimidating George, you might want to give his hormones more time to settle down. It can take up to two months for them to stabilize after neutering.

I've found the best way to let them get to know each other is to let them live side-by-side in pens so they can snuggle and groom each other without the possibility of full-on fighting. I don't know how large the cages are that you mention, or whether they're close together. You do want to avoid any nipping or aggressive behavior through the bars, though.

Your guys will have to sort out the dominance issue, and that will require some humping, but if the "humpee" looks at all like he's getting very disturbed and may fight back, or it goes on longer than 10 seconds, or it's head humping, then stop it. I would also try other ways of stopping unwanted behaviors besides stopping the whole session -- put a handful of hay in between them, for instance. Do they have other things in the space during bonding so that they can "take a break" from each other? It may just be that they get bored and on edge by not having anything else to do. A litter box for each of them, a pile of hay, some cardboard tubes to chew on, that sort of thing. You want them to interact, but also want to give them a chance to take short breaks if they need to.

This very recent blog series on bonding is one of the most useful I've run across (read all the parts of the series, even though you're only trying to bond two!): http://www.wheekwheekthump.com/2013/12/29/new-rabbit-bonding-article-series-part-1-lacey/

You can also join the Yahoo Bunbond group. It hasn't been very active lately, but you can search their archives -- there's lots of information there: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bunbond/info

Good luck, and keep us posted on how it goes!

 

[zombiesue]

You're too involved. Circling and humping doesn't always lead to fights. You should let them circle for a while before you stop them and you should let them hump for a few seconds before you stop them, too. They need to figure this out on their own.

 

[DJSiddall]

You're too involved. Circling and humping doesn't always lead to fights. You should let them circle for a while before you stop them and you should let them hump for a few seconds before you stop them, too. They need to figure this out on their own.

if i let them circle they start nipping then become aggressive i avoid this because i dont want them to fight and ruin the chances of a bond there are times when they with sit next to each other then it will suddenly turn into circling and grunting.

 

[DJSiddall]

Aw, what a sweet couple. Dexter reminds me of my little black dwarf that I lost in October :-( It sounds like things are going really well between them! You are doing all the right things -- getting them neutered, stopping unproductive behaviors (like circling), giving them enough time in the session to get to know one another. I agree that if Dexter is doing most of the humping and being too active a "pursuer" and irritating or intimidating George, you might want to give his hormones more time to settle down. It can take up to two months for them to stabilize after neutering.

I've found the best way to let them get to know each other is to let them live side-by-side in pens so they can snuggle and groom each other without the possibility of full-on fighting. I don't know how large the cages are that you mention, or whether they're close together. You do want to avoid any nipping or aggressive behavior through the bars, though.

Your guys will have to sort out the dominance issue, and that will require some humping, but if the "humpee" looks at all like he's getting very disturbed and may fight back, or it goes on longer than 10 seconds, or it's head humping, then stop it. I would also try other ways of stopping unwanted behaviors besides stopping the whole session -- put a handful of hay in between them, for instance. Do they have other things in the space during bonding so that they can "take a break" from each other? It may just be that they get bored and on edge by not having anything else to do. A litter box for each of them, a pile of hay, some cardboard tubes to chew on, that sort of thing. You want them to interact, but also want to give them a chance to take short breaks if they need to.

This very recent blog series on bonding is one of the most useful I've run across (read all the parts of the series, even though you're only trying to bond two!): http://www.wheekwheekthump.com/2013/12/29/new-rabbit-bonding-article-series-part-1-lacey/

You can also join the Yahoo Bunbond group. It hasn't been very active lately, but you can search their archives -- there's lots of information there: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/bunbond/info

Good luck, and keep us posted on how it goes!

I have 2 cages i swap the rabbits out every so often georges is 120cm long dexters is 100cm long i put the cages next to each other with a bit of a gap when i go to work i have walked in and they have been sat near each other, i am currently using the bath method i will try hay next time will they fight over hay? thanks for the advice

 

[DJSiddall]

Hormones take about 6 weeks to fully dissipate, perhaps it would help to take things slow for now since Dexter got neutered recently. If Dexter is the one doing most of the grooming, it sounds like George is the clear dominant bunny, but Dexter's hormones are still leading him to pick fights with George. Pushing his head into George's side is probably biting - if he wanted to be groomed he would put his head under George's head.

I've never heard of bunnies circling each other as a prelude to fighting though. The closest I can think of is when my two boys circle, running, in excitement when they know they're about to get some yummies. I don't have much experience in bonding bunnies, but I'd hazard that they may just be playing or getting to know each other - though if you know that it will lead to fighting, then yeah break it up. Hopefully a more experienced member will be along soon to help you more with this!

But imho... right now if things are going relatively smoothly with no fights, despite one bunny possibly still being hormonal, I'd say things are going pretty well. Intermittent humping is normal. All you need is time and patience.

the circling can lead to a fight when i first got Dexter he was 10 weeks old he got into Georges cage one day after i left the top open by accident after i changed his food and stuff they were circling when i walked back into the room i was thinking oh god i split them up but they wasn't neutered at this time after the confrontation i noticed 1 of Georges ears was down after looking at him Dexter had bitten through his ear while bonding them now 3 months later they seem not to remember it or have forgot about it maybe Dexter mounted him while i wasn't in the room and bit him, when i got Dexter he had a scab on his neck possibly from a rabbit mounting him as he was in a cage with 2 others.

 

[DJSiddall]

This is how i have the cages Blue is Dexters Red is Georges they are in each others cages

 

[Ricki911]

Male to males are the hardest to bond. The fur pulling, and circle is normal, and by breaking them up this starts the cycle over (bonding over). I bonded my two boys Marco and Radar took about 4 weeks in total (both my boys were fixed years earlier). My issues was my first rabbit (Marco), had anxiety issues, and also fought rabbits (the past several owners got another rabbit, then gave him away because they fought yet I assume they didn't know how to bond rabbits).

These two were my first bonding (and to be honest it was hell), but I successfully bonded a female with them no issues.

What I did was don't take them to a spot where they don't know do it where they usually are. I was lucky as Marco was free run, while Radar was in a cage (as I was fostering for the shelter I volunteer at). I would switch their dishes up, beds, and things that smelt like them. One key one was Marcos stuff duckie, I gave it to Radar.

Whenever I had Radar out the first few times, I put him out (where Marco plays, sleeps, etc). While Marco went in the cage. I had a few scraps on the floor. It also good personality, to have the opposites. Marco is very domeninent, whereas Radar is afraid of his own shadow. They had to fight out to see who was the boss, in the end Marco was (I think Marco wanted a friend, he was afraid he was leaving). They had one big fight, which I didn't break up (I got bit a few times, but fur was everywhere), I separated them that night, now they are best buds both free run.

 

[Blue eyes]

I just wanted to reiterate about the amount of time it can take for hormones to dissipate post surgery. Your one rabbit just got done 3 weeks ago. I've read it can take a minimum of 4 weeks but as much as 8 weeks until those hormones have fully dissipated.
By trying to bond them now, so soon after surgery, it will make things more difficult. I would be most concerned about an irreconcilable fight occurring now when hormones are still active.

It seems prudent to just wait a few more weeks and then begin fresh. I see no need to rush things now when hormones may be having a negative influence.

 

[DJSiddall]

I just wanted to reiterate about the amount of time it can take for hormones to dissipate post surgery. Your one rabbit just got done 3 weeks ago. I've read it can take a minimum of 4 weeks but as much as 8 weeks until those hormones have fully dissipated.
By trying to bond them now, so soon after surgery, it will make things more difficult. I would be most concerned about an irreconcilable fight occurring now when hormones are still active.

It seems prudent to just wait a few more weeks and then begin fresh. I see no need to rush things now when hormones may be having a negative influence.

I think this is what I'm going to do Dexter gets really excited when he see's George running free past his cage he tries to run after him, where as if Dexter is out and he runs past George, George isn't fussed. So i think this may be the hormones in action

 

[DJSiddall]

I forgot to mention that Dexter will lick george and then he will put his head really low in front of Georges mouth but George doesnt entertain him he'll just ignore him, George seems to be nip Dexter now.

 

[Ricki911]

Sounds like Dexter wants George to clean him. My guys do that, sometimes the other one will and sometimes they will nip his butt to say get lost.