At 10 hrs of bonding all hell breaks loose!!!

[jastas]

Hi guys,
Need your wise and expert help!

I am bonding a trio of boys, all neutered, who are under 1 yo. There are 2 brothers (dwarf lops) and one British Giant. I have read EVERYTHING possible on the internet and on this forum about bonding, but we have hit a bit of a snag which I can't find an answer for. The buns are great with each other until about hour number 10. Then they turn evil!

In terms of a timeline:
Began bonding 2 to three months after getting them neutered. They were done at 16 weeks. They were housed in separate cages, the bonded pair together, the British Giant apart. We started in the bathroom, and short sessions only. Seemed like all going well, with some mild behavioural issues which were quickly sorted.

Then extended the time in the same area, housing them in separate x pens with a space between. They seemed to be OK in neutral territory, and then would try to fight once back in their x pens. They got to a couple of hours in neutral territory doing well. There was licking, sharing food etc.

Recently, unscaled their accommodation to include a run which has a shared separated wire fence they can see each other, lie beside each other, but can't bite through it. At the same time, the time bonding increased to many hours from 3 to 5 to 7 to 10. At 5 hrs, we moved to a bigger pen space for bonding. They shared food, litter boxes, lay beside each other, licked etc. For about 3 long sessions they were fine...BUT...

At evening time, just when we think they are going well, they go nuts! They will eat together, sleep for a bit then start irritating each other. So far, there has been the submissive bun deciding to mount the British Giant, who doesn't even know what is happening because he is so large vs the minilop, and then some chasing stared by both the Minilops and British Giant, then so far, 2 fur flying fights which we've had to break up.

We've gone back to small bonding sessions again in neutral territory, and they again seem great. When we observe them in their pens, with the shared fence, they again eye each other off and try to get at each other through the mesh. I jave been thinking I need to place more space between them - Could this be part of the problem?

Any advice to get us past the witching hour is appreciated!

Attached are photos of the outdoor pen, the indoor bonding set up and them happy before they become possessed .

Cheers,
Jas.

 

[Blue eyes]

Not sure I was quite following the sequence of the bonding. Also, not seeing the length of time this process has been going on (how long ago did you begin bonding sessions?).

From what I could gather, it sounds like they are ok in neutral territory together until so many (around 10) hours have passed. They also try to go after each other when separated by pens. Those separate areas are the established territories of the pair (space 1) and of the single (space 2). Is this correct?

Neutral area is always important with bonding -- clearly it is with these boys. If they are doing well in the neutral area, that is what you want to keep going. By expanding the area or switching them somewhere else (like "including the run") then that is likely going to cause a setback. So the idea with this neutral area is to keep using it --unchanged-- until they are fully and completely bonded. Whether you do this with continued sessions or go with the immersion method, the point is to not change, expand or alter that area while they are still in the process of bonding.

When they are not in the neutral area bonding, it seems that they are losing progress when placed back in their established territories. Perhaps that should change if you choose to continue to do sessions as opposed to the immersion method. There are a couple options for changing that. One, is to begin swapping those spaces. So that would mean putting the single in the pair's space while putting the pairs in the single's space. Each time they end a bonding session, they swap whatever separate spaces they were in. That seems to be a helpful method for some bondings. But it doesn't always help.
The second option would be to house them in totally separate areas when they are not in their neutral bonding session. This would mean that they would be completely out of sight of each other. This would prevent them from feeling territorial towards each other between those sessions.

Now all of this said, I think another difficulty you're facing is that you have an established pair already. That complicates matters. It would be easier if all 3 were separate and each one went back to their own space between bonding sessions. The difficulty with having a pair is that the dynamic is constantly changing for the pair. They are having to re-think their positions every time they get together with the 3rd rabbit. Then they have to reverse that when they are back together as just a pair. For this reason, it would be my thought that the immersion method would be a better option.

I'll link to my website for more on this method. If you choose to do this, however, it would be beneficial to setup the bonding area with sections where they can get away from each other. The lack of these hidey areas may be part of the issue you are running into after so many hours of bonding. They need to have the option to get a break from each other. You can see samples of this at the link. Also, be prepared to set aside time to be able to monitor them 24/7. This may mean sleeping nearby the area.
https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html

 

[jastas]

Thank you for taking the time to answer and for your long and thoughtful response.

I have read through and absorbed the information on your website and the associated links. What a lovely resource!

We started the bonding process in earnest about 2 to 3 months ago. This was severly punctuated by school, home and work, so the gradual method seemed to be the better option for us. We managed to get a session or two a week during school holidays (last 5 weeks), so long as I remind the kids (my husband doesn't really have the energy).

You are correct, the separated pens are marked as their area, and the separation has been getting less and less as they seemed to be doing better and better together. I re-constructed a polypipe run for them all, separated by the mesh in the centre for them. Also, the British Giant really, really needed more space. The hutch I had bought for him turned out to be a massively disappointing experience with shoddy workmanship, poor conflict resolution and will fall apart quite soon. My husband is in the middle of building a glorious castle for him instead, and we are hoping they can all live well in that new place with the large run attached as it is certainly big enough for them all. I have been thinking (last week since the last fight) that they do need a more substantial physical barrier between them, and your post has convinced me to take a step back.

As for the bonded pair and introduction of the third - we were only meant to have the bonded pair! My son decided quite late in the piece that he'd like a rabbit after all, thus the hasty in grafting. We'd have looked for a settled trio otherwise. As mental health supports for my kids, they have been amazing. Sorry to say, the mental health of the adults has gone steadily down since their introduction !

It does seem like the immersion method would be the next step. Thank you for the links to your set up - I believe ours was far too wide and open plan. They'll need more hiding areas and better supervision, and this means we (I.e me, as it's likely I'll be the one) will need to clear the schedule. We have been in touch with a bunny bonder in our area and she seems to think she can get them over the hump, but she hasn't gotten back to me.

Again, thanks for answering. My 13 yo daughter has dreams of opening a rabbit rescue one day, and reading your site amongst others has been a real inspiration for her.
Cheers,
Jas.

 

[Blue eyes]

Thanks! I'm glad it was helpful.

Sounds like you have a plan moving forward. Keep us informed! One suggestion I would have is regarding the glorious castle your husband is making. I'd suggest not letting any of the rabbits in it until they are fully bonded.

The trickiest time after bonding rabbits can be when they are placed in whatever area will be their permanent shared area. It is best if that area is as neutral as possible. Having a brand new 'castle' will be perfect for that. When placed in there together, it will be easier for them to accept it as shared space if none of them have ever been in it prior.

 

[jastas]

Hello Blue Eyes,
May I ask some questions wrt to the immersion method so I don't mess it up?

1. I note that your set up is relatively confined, but you have 2 areas for food and water, lots of hidey holes, and some toys. Is this so there is no competition between them all for resources?
2. I have seen some versions of immersion bonding where the rabbits are placed in a VERY small container or pen, with no food or water bowl and no room to really turn around in. When they seemed more peaceful with each other, they were given more room and more 'high value' toys or possessions. What is your opinion on this type of set up?
3. I am able to clear a solid 5 days for this trial...do I need longer?
4. How did you separate them when fighting?
5. Any other useful tips on the bonding process using the immersion method?

Thank you in advance!
Jas.

 

[Blue eyes]

The setup you see on my website for the immersion method is an adaptation of the outdoor bonding setups on the Cottontails Rescue site. I have their link on my bonding bunnies page and, if you haven't checked out that Cottontails Rescue link, I'd encourage you to do so. There are videos there as well showing bondings going well, going not so well, and one that just won't work. I found those to be most helpful.

Having a few hideys, more than one place for litter box, food, water, are all part of trying to minimize territory disputes. Toys are typically a non-issue.

The idea of having a super small space with no food/water for the immersion method is not something I have any personal experience trying. That said, however, it seems to me to be counterintuitive. The rabbits are forced to be in each other's faces with no escape for extended time, no food.... seems to be a great way to irritate rabbits. Irritated rabbits aren't as likely, imo, to get along.

How much time is needed is really going to depend on the rabbits themselves. What you want to see is perfect behavior among them with no squabbles whatsoever. Once that occurs, you'll want to keep them in that space, no changes, for a bare minimum of 1 week, but 2 would be better. The reason behind this is to give that new bond time to become more established. As mentioned before, the real test comes once they are moved to their new permanent location. The better their bond before switching, the less likely they'll have issues.

How long it may take for them to establish that no-squabbles behavior is anyone's guess. Don't know if 5 days will do it. When I tried a trio (at the suggestion of the rescue I've known for years) the hurdle to overcome was that I already had a female and they suggested a pair of brothers. Two males and 1 female was a bad idea as the boys ended up fighting over her attention. The boys were not bonded beforehand but they did get along easily (until they started spending time with her). However during the course of the trio bonding attempt -- 4 weeks plus -- the dynamic of who would be top bun was in a constant state of flux.

In your case, the hurdle to overcome is that two are already bonded. Whenever that 3rd bun is added in, the pecking order will be unknown. It will take them all being together for extended time to get that dynamic sorted and settled.

As for separating them in case of a fight, anything can be used. I used that green tunnel just because it was right there and handy. At Cottontails, they've used a board (about 2' by 2'). I've heard others use a broom.

(Check your private message on this forum for more.)

Once we decided to create a bonded pair instead of a trio (the rescue took back one of the boys), we allowed the pair to get well established in that bonding area. When we brought them downstairs for their new permanent area, we initially limited that area so they wouldn't establish separate territories-- which they might be inclined to do in too large of a space. To limit the space, I sectioned off a space around the cage. The cage was familiar to the female who was sure happy to be back! Eventually we removed the pen altogether to allow free roam. Here she is showing how happy she is (while the boy is still getting used to this brand-new-to-him space).