Anyone who has/had a rabbit with pasteurella?

[Katmais_mommy]

I'm going to the vet with Katmai tomorrow. If his infection is determined as pasteurella, then I need to know what I'm in for

 

[ra7751]

Every rabbit has pasteurella....so does every mammal (including humans) and many birds. It is an "opportunistic" bacteria that lies dormant until the opportunity arises that it can grow. In an ideal world, the host's immune system can keep this bacteria under control. In rabbits,it most often presents as an Upper Respiratory Infection but can invade any body tissue and is commonly found as a "tag along" in abscess situations. Pasteurella can't be technically cured but can be controlled....a type of remission. I call it "putting the genie back into the bottle". Most strains of Pasteurella are sensitive to penicillin and cephalosporins...but few vets know how to properly use these drugs. They are safe only as injectables. Most vets continue to use old Sulfa drugs (Bactrim, Septra, Sulfatrim, Trimethoprim, etc.) and early floroquinolones (Cipro and Baytril) but they are increasingly ineffective in today's world due to resistance. I have used a new floroquinolone (Zeniquin/Marbofloxacin) successfully. My current drug of choice against Pasteurella is Azithromycin (Zithromax). Regardless of the pathogen and/or drug used....in order to reduce the chance of resistant bacteria in the future, it is important for your doctor to clinically identify the pathogen and prescribe an appropriate drug and it's your responsibility to administer any drugs exactly as prescribed both in amount and duration. The trend in human medicine is to limit antibiotics to only more complex infections (and that should be trickling down to veterianry medicine) in an effort to limit future resistance issues.

Randy

 

[tiabia0]

My 5.5year old dutch died from pasteurella infection 2.5years ago. It was quite sudden and very random. She started acting strange so we took her to the vet and they didnt see anything wrong inside her (i will never go to that vet again). we did force feed her and had her on meds to move the gut and she was always cold. After a few days she had started losing a little weight. When she had passed away we took her to a vet I normally take my cats to and they did an autopsy. She said she found a tumor inside (this rabbit was never spayed) and a lot of gunk which came from the pasteurella infection.

 

[Maureen Las]

Your rabbit didn't specifically die from just a bacterial infection but from a bacterial infection most likely exacerbated by a low immune response created by a malignancy.

Most URI or other bacterial infections usually are treatable if caught early and treated aggressively with the correct antibiotics.

Did the vet take your rabbit's temperature.? A rabbit with a low body temperture needs to be warmed before any attempts to syringe feed solids. An animal with a low body timperature (or high for that matter) cannot digest and assimilate food. SQ fluids and warming the rabbit are the first things that need to be done.

I agree that you should not go to that vet again.

 

[tiabia0]

I cannot even remember everything we went through with my rabbit before she died. She definitely did have a low temperature, I remember that. We would heat up water bottles and put them in her cage. She was perfectly normal then bam out of nowhere she was a completely different bunny and in a matter of a couple days she was gone. I know dealing with the infection and tumor it would have been hard to get her back to normal.

 

[Runestonez]

Our Peppers had pasturella when we first brought her home...
that was 4 years ago...
We did a long run of high Baytril dosing...about 6 months.

She is fine now...but if she gets overly stressed she will develop white snotties around her nose...not scads...but noticable. We don't usually have to intervene...it usually settles on its own when the stress is resolved.:biggrin2:

Pasturella used to REALLY worry us...but it is an overgrowth of bacteria that is already present in everybunny...it just happens to be an overgrowth of THAT particular type. It's manageable!

Danielle

 

[ra7751]

Just a couple of thoughts. Baytril is no longer as effective against Pasteurella as it was several years ago. Something that most vets aren't aware of is the lingering effects from long term use of certain drugs. Baytril, like many drugs, can be damaging to the liver and kidneys when used long term.It has also been linked to some joint issues especially in younger animals. Sometimes long term dosing is the only way but we now know that we have much more aggressive drugs that don't have to be dosed long term that are highly effective at managing Pasteurella as well as other opportunistic bacteria. If long term dosing of any drug is indicated, a full CBC should be performed to provide a base charting level and regular CBCs performed during the dosing in order to monitor vital organs.

Randy

 

[karenladd]

I have had several rabbits with pasturella who lived for years afterwards. They were treated with Baytril (both oral and injectable) but the medication was pretty much given continuously. One of my rabbits had abcesses under his chin that had to be removed surgically, and also had ear infections that lasted for years. I had to clean his ears out with antibiotic fluids in a syringe weekly, and give Baytril orally. He lived for about 3 years after his diagnosis, much to the vet's surprise. Until the last month, he was fiesty, affectionate, and ate like a horse. He was probably about 9 years old when he died, which is a good lifespan, even for a healthy rabbit. His was the worst case but I also had several others who would periodically start sneezing, with discharge from their noses. Several rounds of Baytril would cause the infection to subside and they were fine for up to a year at a time. However, it would recur off and on.

Pasturella can be very stubborn, but it can be treated if you catch it fairly early. It does, however, usually recur.

 

[karenladd]

Thanks for the update on the use of Baytril. When I had my rabbits, Baytril was the only drug out there that was used for rabbits. With Duncan, since he was on meds for 3 years straight, I switched over to Tetracycline at one point, and that seemed to hold the infection at bay as well. It was also much cheaper! I gave injectable Baytril for several months, in the hopes that the infection would subside enough to stop medication for awhile, but it didn't make a difference. I know that duncan would never have lived another 3 years if he weren't on antibiotics because his ear infection was terrible. He had an abcess in his middle ear that could not be surgically removed so we were only able to control it from spreading.

 

[tonyshuman]

I would recommend that in the future you give antibiotics for longer and try different ones, as well as looking into non-surgical treatments for abscesses.

This article describes a method to treat stubborn abscesses with injectible medicine (that is easily available at many farm stores) without surgery. When the injectible meds here are combined with an oral drug, like zithromax (azithromycin), a lot of success in treating abscesses, ear infections, and upper respiratory infections has been achieved. The other indications aren't mentioned in the article, but the most common bacteria to cause abscesses are usually the same ones that cause inner ear and upper respiratory infections. These include pasturella species, psuedomonas species, staphylococcus species, and others.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

Karenladd--it sounds like you really care a lot about your bunnies and do everything you can to give them good care, but perhaps your vet is a bit out-of-date in his rabbit treatment knowledge. It's not really best to remove an abscess, unless it's in a life-threatening place (putting pressure on a vital organ, or the trachea for example) and the abscess is highly encapsulated. Many abscesses aren't little spherical balls of infection, but instead have long finger-like projections that extend out (that would be a poorly encapsulated abscess). The next time your rabbit presents with a URI or abscess, I'd print out the article I posted and bring it in for him to see.

 

[karenladd]

Thanks for the article link. I will check it out! The rabbit with the abcesses had them on his throat and mouth area, which is why the vet wanted to remove them. He was worried they would compromise breathing and eating. As this was about 7 years ago, Baytril was about the only thing people were prescribing. I'll look up the more current medications that are being used and print it out to take to my vet.

It was very frustrating early on, because most vets didn't know anything about treating rabbits and there were very few treatments available. I'm glad to hear that there are more treatment options these days!

 

[tonyshuman]

Yeah, rabbit medicine has come a long way in the last few years. It's really great for us bunny lovers!

 

[karenladd]

Hi Claire,

I just wanted to let you know that I took my rabbit, Nora, to the vet today to find out what those lumps were under her ears and it turns out that they were abcesses. The vet opened the abcesses up and cleaned then, and Nora is now on Baytril. I asked her about bicillin (from the article that you directed me to) but she is not comfortable with using anything penicillin based due to the long history of it being considered dangerous for rabbits. We are going to use Baytril and see if it takes care of the problem. Having had success with Baytril in the past, I am fine with going this direction to start.

Unfortunately, we have no idea what caused the bi-lateral abcesses and I'm hoping they won't re-appear. Thanks for your help!

 

[ra7751]

I hate to say this but your vet is way out of the times. I use many drugs that just a couple of years ago were considered a huge "no no" with rabbits. Fact is that Baytril is rarely effective against any infection. A true abscess contains anaerobic bacteria and Baytril doesn't have a chance to resolve an abscess. An abscess does contain aerobic bacteria such as pasteurella, pseudomonas, staph, strep and may others....but they are not the primary infection in a true abscess. They are "tag alongs". If you use drugs that might treat the tag alongs, the abscess will never resolve. And surgery is no longer always indicated with an abscess. I have treated numerous abscesses without surgery....drugs only. Ask your vet is she would use Convenia in a rabbit. We do. We also use Chloramphenicol, Zeniquin and several others. I even use penicillin in the most delicate of rabbits....baby eastern cottontails.

In defense of your vet, there is very little training or CE they receive in these issues even in vet school....and I know since I sometimes do programs at a local vet school. And sometimes they are limited by practice policies. And unfortunatele, some are just stuck in their old fashioned ways that have been proven wrong. No flaming intended toward your vet....most of them are "behind the eight ball" when treating exotics.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

:yeahthat:

 

[karenladd]

When I read the article about using Bicillin for abcesses it stressed that the Bicillin can only be given as an injectable, and never orally. Have you found this to be the case for you as well?

If the Baytril doesn't take care of the abcess, I will be asking about other means to treat but I'm hoping this does it. There aren't very many vets around here who treat rabbits so I'll call around.

Thanks!

 

[JadeIcing]

karenladd wrote:

When I read the article about using Bicillin for abcesses it stressed that the Bicillin can only be given as an injectable, and never orally. Have you found this to be the case for you as well?

If the Baytril doesn't take care of the abcess, I will be asking about other means to treat but I'm hoping this does it. There aren't very many vets around here who treat rabbits so I'll call around.

Thanks!

Where are you located?

 

[ra7751]

The problem with using Penicillin or Cephalosporins orally is that they are devastating on the "gram positive" bacteria that is needed to digest food. Without that bacteria, the food can't be digested but even more important, this beneficial bacterial also keeps the bad bacteria (primarily Clostridium) under control. There are many drugs that can used safely in rabbits as long as they are injected. And there are other benefits to injectables. It is less stressful on the animal (once you get the hang of injections) and the dosing is much more precise. And even in the case of Baytril....it is more effective if you keep it out of the acidic GI. I do have several vets in my area using these drugs after I proved to them the benefits of getting out of the mindset that Baytril is the only safe antibiotic for rabbits. And the bottom line is that it makes no difference how "safe" a drug is....but if it doesn't work, it's doesn't matter.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

You absolutely cannot give Bicillin orally to rabbits. It destroys the good bacteria in the GI tract, which causes other bacteria to overgrow, and the rabbit will die quickly from diarrhea (dehydration) and the toxins released into the body by these bad bacteria. I know giving injections may sound daunting to a pet owner, but it is a useful skill for the future and allows you to use antibiotics that you wouldn't be able to use otherwise.

If you have a vet to show you how to do sub-q injections and provide you with sterile saline to dilute the Bicillin and other injection supplies, the drug itself can be bought at farm supply stores very cheaply.

This list shows which antibiotics are safe to use, and if they can only be injected, etc.
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

 

[karenladd]

ra7751 wrote:

The problem with using Penicillin or Cephalosporins orally is that they are devastating on the "gram positive" bacteria that is needed to digest food. Without that bacteria, the food can't be digested but even more important, this beneficial bacterial also keeps the bad bacteria (primarily Clostridium) under control. There are many drugs that can used safely in rabbits as long as they are injected. And there are other benefits to injectables. It is less stressful on the animal (once you get the hang of injections) and the dosing is much more precise. And even in the case of Baytril....it is more effective if you keep it out of the acidic GI. I do have several vets in my area using these drugs after I proved to them the benefits of getting out of the mindset that Baytril is the only safe antibiotic for rabbits. And the bottom line is that it makes no difference how "safe" a drug is....but if it doesn't work, it's doesn't matter.

Randy

Yes, I read about that and I do know the terrible effect antibiotics can have on the GI tract. I have given injectable Baytril at home to several rabbits (including the one who had the long term ear infection) but never anything else. I know that my vet was scared to death to use anything penicillin because of what they had been taught in vet school. I have a cousin who is a vet and plan to call her and ask her opinion. I don't know how familiar she or her husband is with rabbits though as they do mostly orthopedic surgery on dogs and cats.