Any help in finding answers is much appreciated

[AlmightyShortest]

I'm hoping I can get a few questions answered about my rabbit, Lenny. He's going to be 9 next month and has had a few bouts of stasis in his lifetime. His diet varies as he seems to absolutely LOVE something and then all of a sudden deem it inedible. (He must get his personality traits from his mom ) I tend to feed him pellets and occasional fruit (he loves bananas) and vegetables (kale, red/green leaf lettuce, cilantro, spinach). He used to chow down on hay but now he won't touch the stuff and refused to since about last year when he was sick around this time with what seemed to be an out of the blue abscess behind his eye. That cleared up after several weeks of pen-g injections (once per week).

So this brings us to the now. About 3 weeks ago, he started showing signs of stasis. His poop was not consistent, and still isn't but it's better than it's been. Initially it was diarrhea-like (very soft and runny) and then after taking him to the vet, he was put on Critical Care and a pain medicine. He was on Metacam for a few days but discontinued it because the vet said it can lead to dehydration, he started drinking and pending excessively after being on Metacam so I figured that was it but he's been off it for a week now and he's still drinking/peeing a lot. He's also now having accidents regularly all over my room. I have to keep him in his cage for most of the day now because of it happening so frequently. I feel bad because he's used to having his cage open all the time. When I keep him caged up now, for the most part he just sits in front of the water bottle or facing the corner like he's in time out, lol. He's been sneezing or coughing, I can't tell so I changed his bedding out from cedar to those paper pellets for cats because I heard they're safe and don't upset the rabbit's respiratory system like wood chips. No colored discharge from the nose, mouth or eyes but it does look like clear liquid comes out from his eyes when I administer the CC. I'm not rushing it though so it's not that. I wait for him to sort of lift his head a bit and bite the syringe asking for more.

There's just so many random symptoms yet he's acting just fine around me. Being super affectionate, circling me and following me when I have him out, giving me endless kisses, etc...He still seems to have an appetite, just not as much of one since all this started. I'm making this post ridiculously long and I'm sorry. There's just so much to cover with him. I'm just concerned because he's so old that he won't bounce back from whatever he's got going on here. I know rabbits tend to hide their pain for as long as possible so it worries me.

Thank you to those who read this!

 

[BlueMoods]

If he has had cedar most of his life, I'd say that is what caused the respiratory problems and, all you can do is ask the vet for something to help, probably just to treat the symptoms.

He does need more fiber than pellets so, if he won't eat any kind of hay, even misted with apple juice, you need to provide an unlimited supply of something high fiber that he will eat. (Fresh, chemical free grass or clover, Parsley, especially the stems. Cilantro, stems mostly, or another high fiber green he will eat. But first try different kinds of hay.

For anything else ask your vet, he can tell you what is causing the symptoms and, what to do about it. If the vet says give metcam, then you give it for as long as the vet told you to give it. The vet know it can cause dehydration but, also knows that your rabbit needs it and since he drinks plenty, that should not be a problem.

 

[lovelops]

I agree with Blue Moods on the cedar which is bad.. also, I would take either Chux or wee wee pads and lay them out in the room. If he does have statis he needs activity to keep his guts moving. Laying around isn't a big help when it comes to that illness. Just keeping him motivated to move is big if you have to aggrivate him, then do it, but I would go to the dollar store or where ever, get some plastic shower curtains and put them on the floor. If he poohs, no problem, you can dump the pooh in the trash and wash it off with water and vingear and use it again if you want, or wee wee pads, but it's important you keep him somewhat active during this time period. Also, are you doing any type of massage on his tummy?

I would try to get him out of the cage and active as much as possible An active bunny has an active gut... You say this is not the first time this has happened? I would get the underpads that are cloth that they use in nursing homes and lay on the floor. That way it does not matter if there is an accident and you can wash them and reuse them. I use them with my bunnies and I think I have a pic of my big bunny Brooke laying on it with her litter box beside her. If I can find the pic I will post it so you can see what I'm talking about using. They are cheap and you can buy them on Amazon or ebay. I like them because I can toss any pooh off into the trash or use in my backyard for my flowers and dump it in the washing machine.

Good luck with your bunny and I hope everything works out..

Vanessa

 

[AlmightyShortest]

Thank you both for the replies! I called the vet and gave them an update as to what's going on with him and they're going to give me a call back shortly.

The vet actually switched him off of Metacam because of the dehydration factor and put him on Buprenorphine Oral 0.3 mg/ml prefilled syringes. I give him that once or twice a day depending on how he's doing. He seems to be in less pain and passing poop a lot better. He absolutely hated the CC at first but now he bites the syringe for more so that's good. I just wish he would eat his hay. This is the biggest problem with him. I've tried several different brands of Timothy hay and it just sits there. I guess I'll just keep an ample supply of the greens and herb mixture I've been buying for him on hand. He goes through that pretty quickly and if that adds enough fiber then that's fine.

I'm going to see if the vet can give me something for a possible respiratory infection due to the cedar. Why they have items like that out there like it's safe for small animals, I'll never know. :/ The cat pellet bedding I got him is pine based but it states no chemicals, 100% natural, no dust. Is that still not good? I can switch it out.

His temperament is still fine so I'm hoping I'm catching things early enough. He's older but still acts like he's a baby bunny. Such a great spirit and patient with everything.

 

[BlueMoods]

Try a differnt hay, not every rabbit likes timothy. He might prefer orchard grass or Bermuda grass. Misting it with apple juice can get them to eat it to but, don't leave the damp hay over 24 hours because it could mold if you did and, mold is bad for bunnies.

 

[AlmightyShortest]

Okay, I'll try that I appreciate all the info!

 

[JBun]

A few thoughts. Has the vet checked his molars for spurs? Dental problems can cause a rabbit to suddenly be picky about it's food, especially hay. Also, with head abscesses, they can be notoriously difficult to completely clear up, and often come back. You may need to have head xrays done to ensure this isn't the problem behind him not wanting to eat hay. With your bun being older though, xrays may be difficult, as they usually have to be done under GA, which is risky with an older bun.
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/dental.html

Continued stasis problems are likely due to not eating hay and not getting enough fiber because of it. If it proves to be a dental issue causing the lack of hay eating, then that may improve once the dental issues are sorted. But if not or until that time, trying different varieties of grass hay can sometimes make a difference, as some buns are just picky about their hay. If that doesn't work, and you have a livestock feed store nearby, they will sometimes have large bags of compressed timothy hay pellets. They are just the plain hay ones with no other added ingredients. I have one bun that wouldn't eat hay when I first got him, but would eat these hay pellets fine. This can be a good alternative for a bun that absolutely won't touch long stem loose hay.

For a stasis prone bun, it really is best not to be feeding any sugary starchy foods. These type of foods slow down a rabbits digestion, and a slow gut is the primary reason stasis occurs. So you want to try and minimize this happening by controlling the diet. Carbs and sugars slow down the gut, fiber increases motility. So high fiber, low carb foods are even more important for stasis buns. Hay and leafy veggies are usually the best foods for buns with this problem(unless your bun is sensitive to a certain veggie). I've even had to cut rabbit food pellets out of one buns diet, because they would cause stasis problems for him, because of the grains and sugars added to them. But that isn't always necessary, just depends on your bun.
http://rabbit.org/sluggish-motility-in-the-gastrointestinal-tract-2/

With the peeing accidents, have you had a blood test done to check kidney and liver function? I haven't heard of metacam causing dehydration in rabbits, but it is contraindicated when there are kidney and liver issues. If there are kidney problems, this could account for the increased thirst and peeing. A urinalysis may also be helpful in determining what the issue is.

With your bun having several health issues at the moment, it really will likely take more testing to get to the bottom of what is going on. Remember, stasis is just a symptom and isn't always due to diet. Underlying health problems can also cause stasis to occur. I don't know how experienced your vet is with rabbits, but if you think you need a more experienced rabbit vet, you may be able to find one on these lists.
http://rabbit.org/vet-listings/
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f28/finding-vet-13366/

Pine pellet litter should be just fine. That's what many of us here use.

 

[AlmightyShortest]

Wow, thanks JBun. You posted a lot of useful information.

I actually had his teeth looked at and X-rays done when he had the abscess last February. They couldn't find anything irregular and such he's an older bunny, they didn't want to put him under. That's a huge thing I worry about. I don't want him to go under and not wake up.

He had a urinalysis done then too I believe and they didn't find anything wrong. I'm wondering if he's drinking out of boredom being in the cage more often now, I'm not sure. There's no color to it really. Maybe a mild yellow tint but nothing irregular by any means.

I'm in Las Vegas right now and the place I'm going to seems to know more about rabbits than all the other vets I've taken him to in the past in various states. They state they're specialized in treating exotics but I can always get a second opinion from another local vet. I'll browse the links you gave me.

My vet ended up calling me back and said to increase the CC to 3-4 times a day instead of 1-2. Keep the pain medicine at 2 times a day. I ordered a different type of hay today via Amazon Prime as well as Bene-Bac so maybe he'll like that variety.

I'll been making sure he gets plenty of fresh veggies and I actually have a small bowl of mixed up CC in there because he's finally acquired a taste for it and is eating it slowly on his own, which is great. Hasn't touched the new Timothy based pellets I got him but maybe he'll give it a shot in the next few days. Otherwise, that's probably a no go too.

In the 9 years I've had him he's had gas leading to stasis twice and now this makes 3. The first time I may have spoiled him with too many yogurt drops but the second time was last year during his abscess issue he had going on.

I filled his water bottle this morning at 4 a.m. and as of now he's not even halfway. Maybe more like 1/3? It looks like a 16 oz bottle so he's slowed down quite a bit. On the days that concerned me, he'd be almost done with it by now.

 

[JBun]

Since the xrays were from so long ago, too much could have changed in that amount of time. The abscess returning could still be a possibility. If you don't want to risk a GA, a conscious exam of the molars would still be a good idea, though if there are spurs found causing ulceration, a GA would need to be done to take care of them.

If the urinalysis was done last year, it wouldn't be applicable to the current problem, which started 3 weeks ago, correct? So you would need current blood and urine tests to determine what might be causing the excessive thirst and urination. I wouldn't think boredom would have anything to do with it, but I suppose there may be a slight possibility. But the sudden increase in peeing would be concerning to me, and something I would want a vet investigating, as if it does have to do with kidney function, that is very serious, and early intervention and meds could make a big difference in the progression of the disease. Not saying this is the cause, but increased urination is a symptom of it.

Your vet may be just fine. I will just sometimes suggest finding a different vet, in case someone isn't satisfied with their current vet. Unfortunately, not many rabbit vets are actually any good. RO member Nancy McClelland (Larry actually) I believe lives in Vegas and may be able to recommend a good vet if you really do want to see a different one.

Not trying to be alarming here with my recommendations, but just based on what you wrote and how much your bun has going on, it just seemed to me there may likely be more going on causing your buns current problems.

 

[mhockin78]

My bun is incontinent, but I deal with it...even on white carpets. I signed up to care for my bun in sickness and in health, and it's coming full force right now. So I invested in a SpotBot (mini carpet cleaner w/detachable hose) and lemme tell you, I am in LOVE with it. Toby at one point destroyed our white carpet, we got them cleaned and I was so impressed with the cleanliness that I didn't let him out for almost two weeks (mean mommy) then I got real. He needs to be out and I can't be that concerned over a carpet. Plus the good thing about bunny pee, it really has no foul odor to it, so it is really easy to clean up. But this SpotBot, whoa, I use it daily. And instead of the harsh/chemical laden detergent that they encourage you to use, I use Bio-Kleen and warm water mixture. It works perfect, I'm happy with it, the bun gets to scoot around and I have a friend that helps me easily clean up the messes, oh and I put towels down anywhere he frequently sits. Just food for thought if you need help with cleaning

 

[AlmightyShortest]

Oh, good! I looked at the lists for rabbit savvy vets and the one I'm seeing is on the list. Dr. Gorman at Creature Comforts. They've been so great in helping me with Lenny. They actually surprised me and gave me a call the other day just to see how he was doing. It definitely doesn't hurt to run his symptoms by another vet here though. I'm more concerned about his sneeze thing at the moment because he's producing fairly normal looking stool at this point, still shows an appetite (despite being picky), running around and acting normal (not lethargic in anyway), and his excessive drinking has gone back to normal for now. I'll still keep an eye on all of that as I continue the Critical Care and pain medicine.

They didn't seem too concerned about the sneezing though and thinks it may be allergies; either to the cedar (which is now removed for a few days), the hay he has, or even to something outside. This, I'm unsure of. I have read that rabbits can have allergies but if I removed the item(s) that he's possibly allergic to-- How long before I see improvement? Is there anything safe I can give him to 'see' if it's allergies? Like children's benadryl in a very low dose? Or is it a guessing game sort of thing? There's no discharge and if any, it's very minimal and clear. That's what led them to believe he's having an allergic reaction to something. He's not showing signs of snuffles or anything major. I lived with a rabbit previously that had Pasteurella and I know how bad that can get. I'll try and see if I can record it somehow. It's just a short 2-3 "sneezes" here and there. It doesn't sound like he's having a hard time breathing.

Thanks for the suggestions on cleaning the accidents, mhockin78. I think the SpotBot is a little out of my price range for a possibly temporary problem but I can try picking up a bottle of Bio-Kleen. I've already spend around $300 on vet visits, diet changes (BlueMoods- I ordered the Orchard hay), medicines, bedding changes so if I can save some money, I'll just cut corners when it comes to cleaning up the pee. LoveLops- Investing in some pads for his accidents might be handy. Especially the one I can rewash. Thanks!

 

[BlueMoods]

You should remove the cedar for good, it is not good for rabbits. The natural oils in cedar are toxic to them and, over time cause health problems. Pine PELLETS are okay but not pine shavings or chips. Better is corn cob litter, paper small animal bedding, fleece or even hay or straw bedding.

 

[AlmightyShortest]

I removed the cedar a few days ago when I switched to the pine pellet litter.

I'm wondering if hay bothers him too. I put some all around in his cage to make it softer for him and to maybe get him to eat a little of it a few hours ago and now he's sneezing more than ever. It's always the same type-- 3 in a row and then nothing. I'll clean out his cage again when I wake up and omit the hay altogether for a few days. The new kind of hay should be here on Tuesday so I'll see if his sneezing improves.
Also, I'm wondering if he can somehow be allergic to the trees outside our apartment because it seemed to start when they started to bloom. I know my allergies are horrible right now.

 

[lovelops]

My bun is incontinent, but I deal with it...even on white carpets. I signed up to care for my bun in sickness and in health, and it's coming full force right now. So I invested in a SpotBot (mini carpet cleaner w/detachable hose) and lemme tell you, I am in LOVE with it. Toby at one point destroyed our white carpet, we got them cleaned and I was so impressed with the cleanliness that I didn't let him out for almost two weeks (mean mommy) then I got real. He needs to be out and I can't be that concerned over a carpet. Plus the good thing about bunny pee, it really has no foul odor to it, so it is really easy to clean up. But this SpotBot, whoa, I use it daily. And instead of the harsh/chemical laden detergent that they encourage you to use, I use Bio-Kleen and warm water mixture. It works perfect, I'm happy with it, the bun gets to scoot around and I have a friend that helps me easily clean up the messes, oh and I put towels down anywhere he frequently sits. Just food for thought if you need help with cleaning

Cool. I'm going to have to get some of that.. btw, how is Toby doing?
I hope you got the other post about help with some of Toby's issues..

Vanessa

 

[AlmightyShortest]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmsbu7xa5vlqxu7/IMG_0051.MOV

Haven't been able to get his sneezing on camera but I recorded him chewing kind of sideways. It doesn't seem normal to me but this is a less exaggerated version of how he's been doing it. It's not 24/7 though...just a lot. Maybe I'm just being super paranoid, lol.

 

[mhockin78]

Thanks for the suggestions on cleaning the accidents, mhockin78. I think the SpotBot is a little out of my price range for a possibly temporary problem but I can try picking up a bottle of Bio-Kleen. I've already spend around $300 on vet visits, diet changes (BlueMoods- I ordered the Orchard hay), medicines, bedding changes so if I can save some money, I'll just cut corners when it comes to cleaning up the pee. LoveLops- Investing in some pads for his accidents might be handy. Especially the one I can rewash. Thanks!

Ooooh I didn't know they were that expensive, I have this awesome app on my phone called "Woot" where it cycles through daily deals for a pretty decent price and I got the SpotBot refurbished for $69, otherwise I never would have paid $300!!! I don't blame you for not wanting to spend that much!

The Bio-Kleen is really great, I get the one the is scented with Grapefruit, it really has no lingering odor, smells fresh and cleans great, whereas the Lime scented one is bit more powerful in the lime scented arena, but it smells just like lime

 

[AlmightyShortest]

Nice, thanks!

 

[lovelops]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmsbu7xa5vlqxu7/IMG_0051.MOV

Haven't been able to get his sneezing on camera but I recorded him chewing kind of sideways. It doesn't seem normal to me but this is a less exaggerated version of how he's been doing it. It's not 24/7 though...just a lot. Maybe I'm just being super paranoid, lol.

Is this not normal? My guys do this also after eating hay... is this not normal behavior for him?

vanessa

 

[AlmightyShortest]

Well, good news. I went to another vet that has been working with rabbits for over 20 years and had blood work and a urinalysis done. Got the results back tonight and there's no infection, so no UTI. His kidneys are fine too. Sugar is slightly high but no where near the diabetic range. Everything else was fine too. When she evaluated him yesterday she said his coat and front teeth were gorgeous and pretty darn near perfect, especially for his age so that made me happy. She did find a very, very small molar spur on one of his top left molars but looking at it she said it wasn't anything that would really keep him from eating hay. His gums weren't red or irritated either so everything looked fine there besides the small spur. Poor guy has cataracts though.. Least of our problems though. He's still drinking quite frequently and still urinating everywhere. I had to remove his perch because he peed on it and just sat in it, lol. But he's still not lethargic and is very much himself. He's 5.8 lbs as of yesterday, which is in normal range for him. He's usually 6 lbs. He's gotten used to the Critical Care so much that I can just put it in a bowl and he eats it in his cage. I know it's not recommended but I'm going to see if he'll eat Alfalfa hay as my last shot.

Thanks for all the help and concern!

 

[HiddlesKenway]

Hey, AlmightyShortest

I don't think you have much to worry about with your bun drinking so much water my buns have bouts of drinking three 500ml bottles a day (For those who have that type of bottle.) and others who go through 800ml bottles four times a day and most of them increase and decrease there intake depending on the time of year and all do it around the same time. I always find they are attached to their bottles on sunny days and won't go near it on colder ones and most of my rabbits when they drink sit on there bottle for a few minutes before stopping and I also have one who uses and dish and a bottle of 500ml all of which are healthy but one who is recovering from an ear abscess and she barely drinks much at all.

So on that front you've probably got nothing to worry about but as for the peeing everywhere. It could just because he's getting old and has less control over his bladder it happens to many a person or animal but keep an eye on him and what the pee looks like and if you catch him drinking it, give him a salt/mineral lick. He could just be deficient and the excessive peeing would be caused by drinking more. As I'm sure we've all experienced having too many cups of tea and being back and forth to the toilet every ten minutes! And his excessive drinking could just be because he's feeling better.