Antibiotics?

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Malexis

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Im writing up notes for when i go to my vet and i want to know what antibiotics would be the best to put a rabbit on if he has pasturella? Im not sure he has pasteruella, i think he does, and if he does i want to know as much as i can so i know the vet is giving him the best meds. I know of baytril, what others would they use so that i can write notes?

Also is pasteruella contagious? Im researching it and i find things that say it is, and say it isnt so im not sure.

Note: I dont have other rabbits so its not a problem, i just need to know as i have friends who have rabbits.

Thanks!
 
Hi,

To know what antibiotics are indicated, there needs to be a test called a culture and sensitivity. This test will identify the pathogen and establish what antibiotic it is sensitive too. Pasteurella is one of the most common pathogens in rabbits but there are many others that appear. Pasteurella is carried sub-clinically in all mammals and many birds. It is easily controlled unless something compromises the immune system. It takes that opportunity to attack....that is why it's called an opportunistic bacteria. Pasteurella presents as an upper respiratory infection most of the time in rabbits.....but it can invade any body tissue and is often found in the ears and eyes. The most common drugs that have been used in the past are Sulfanomides (Septra, Bactrim, SMZ, etc) and flouroquinolones such as Cipro and Baytril. These drugs have been so misused by both vets and the general public that pasteurella (and other bacteria) are becoming resistant. The drugs just don't work very well any longer. Currently my drugs of choice in a confirmed pasteurella infection is either Zithromax or Convenia. I have heard some reports that the latest version of flouronquiolones, Marbofloxacin (Zeniquin) has been met with some success without the resistance issues. I have also used other drugs such as Penicillin orChloramphenicol. For the most part, unfortunately, most vets are still on the Sulfa and/or Flouroquinolones. None of these class of drugs would be my first choice to fight confirmed pasteurella.

The determination of if pasteurella is truly contagious is still out to jury. While it might be contagious, it is always there just lurking for the smallest opportunity. But how do you account for rabbits with a pasteurella infection that have had no contact with other rabbits? I suspect this pathogen is just there waiting.

Randy
 
Okay thanks :) I wrote some notes down.. So a culture and sensitivity test? Is this a test that my vet can do right then and there or does it need to be sent out? Also any clue as to about how much this will cost?

So most vets would use baytril or some kind of sulfa drug, but in your opinion zithromax or convenia is better? If it is pasteurella should i ask my vet for one of these instead?
 
Ditto.

:D

About whether it is contagious- the shelter I volunteer at had a sickrabbit for several months that we could not move into a foster home because it was on police hold. He had an upper respiratory infection that was resistant to the first antibiotic (Baytril, often overused) and it took him several months to recover. With about a dozen other rabbits in the room at the time, including directly above/below him, and quite a few incoming and outgoing via surrenders and adoptions, no other rabbit got sick.

Whether this is true in all cases, it's hard to know. There are many reports from breeders that upper respiratory infections are contagious but IMO certain practices that are sometimes used such as antibiotics in the water increase the chances of creating "superbugs," not to mention that the population is generally much higher than in a shelter.
 
Okay thanks.. im still not sure i'd want to risk it and get a friends rabbit sick..
We were planningon having a garage sell for our relay for life team and bringing all the animals out but i gues my bun will miss it because my other friend also has a rabbit.
 
Pasturella is really a "catch-all" term that vets use to describe any upper respiratory infection in a rabbit. If a culture was done of any discharge that the rabbit may have it could show any number of different types of bacteria that would respond better to one antibioic rather than to another. it is best for a vet to do a culture but not of all of them do. it is ideal to have a culture done, however, if the rabbit is sick the vet most likely will select an antibiotic based on his experience and use of it.

Many vets (who are NOT trained exotics vets) tend to stick with the drugs that are least likely to create a GI upset in the rabbit while still effectively killing off the bacteria.
Probably one of the most prescribed antibiotics by a non-exotic vet would be trimethoprim sulfa which is often flavored and is not upsetting to the rabbits GI tract. In the long run it is probably the least strong of all the antibiotics and may work for awhile but probably not for a tenacious infection . We have 1 vet in my town who uses 2 drugs for rabbits. The oral one is trimethoprim sulfa and the injectable is baytril. If neither of these are effective over time ..thats it for that rabbit (if one doesn't vet shop.)

Baytril and ciprofloxicin (enrofloxicins)are probably the most commonly prescribed drugs for rabbits by non-exotic vets. Oral baytril is so often prescribed that many rabbits have built up a resistance to it. I had that happen with my girl (RIP) Babette who was given a 6 week courses of baytril for a tenacious upper respiratory infection only to have all the symptoms worsen and break through at about the 4th week of tx. She had built up resistance to it from repeated dosing.

Randy has stated often times that injectable baytril is more effective than oral and in my experience of using both I have found that to be true although I do not know the dynamics behind it.

Since being on the forum and learning from Randy I have used azithromycin (zithromax) on my rabbits. This is a drug that I had to talk a vet into trying. The side -effects are loss of appetite and my bun did experience a lessened appetite but not severe enough to stop the meds. it is more potent than the enrofloxicins

I have never used chloramphenical orally on a rabbit but many members on this forum have used chloramphenical or chlor-palm in combination with bicillin for stubborn infections especially abscesses with great success.

Vets are hesitant to prescribe it as it can cause some serious health issues to a small minority of people if they have skin contact with it (irreversersible destruction of bone marrow) One should use gloves when they use it and/or wash hands thoroughly after contact with it.

My holland lops life was saved within the last several months by an exotics vet prescribing chloramphenical opthalmic salve for my lops raging eye infection. He had been on 3 other antibiotics without any success and the infection had worsened. Chloramphenical has the ability to penetrate very deeply within tissue.

Last but really first is injectable bicillin

Bicillin is broad spectrum and is given subqutaneously mixed with an isotonic solution. Bicillin cured Babette's URI although she did pass away from other unrelated problems.Bicillin is a combination of procaine penicillin (short acting) and benzathine penicillin (long acting) and usually comes in a vial of 150,00 u of each of the pencillins with a total of 300,000 u per ml.

I have used bicillin quite a bit and although I do give bene-bac with it none of my rabbits have ever had any GI upset, loss of appetite or any other negative side-effects from it.

Our mod Randy has taught me most of whatI have just posted so this info is mainly from his conveying his experiences to me.

he is working on the use of a cephalosporin called Convenia which is being used on cats and dogs but not generally on rabbits although several memebers of this forum have used it. It requires either a weekly or every other week injection

I will provide some additional links from rabbit references also
 
Oh wow.. I didnt know that there would be so many different kinds of meds for these kinds of problems.. Should i have my vet test for the certain kind of bacteria? If he decideds to go with baytril should i try and push that he uses Zithromax or Bicillin (these two sound like the best ones from what you said. correct me if im wrong)

Im not sure my vet would really listen to me as im only 15. He'd probably think he knows better, but i feel he doesnt really know how to work with rabbits.
 
i've looked at the first link and it seems that they have to let the bacteria grow and then see what the bacteria is sensitive to, how long does this tak?
 
Randy, who is wild-life rehabber and runs a rabbit rescue usually is available to talk to vets if they would be willing to talk with him . If you think that your vet would talk with him ..just pm him He's ra7751
 
First ... WOW! What a great summary of antibiotic options.

Randy, Convenia is a new one on me and I would really, really like to hear more about it fromyou (and any others who have used it). I really, really like that it is an injection and that it is a 3rd generation cephalosporin, both of which make me think it should have minimal GI side effects.

I have some questions on the original post (and I apologize in advance if this was covered somewhere else and I just didn't see it): What symptoms does your rabbit have that make you suspect pasteurella? Sneezing? Drippy eyes? Nasal discharge? If eye or nose discharge, is it wet and clear? Milky? Colored? Or ...?

How is your rabbit acting in general? Seeming just fine or "under the weather?" Would you consider appetite, "output", and activity levels normal or not?

How severe are the symptoms? How long have they been going on? Could its start have coincided with opening a new bag of food or box of hay (that is perhaps more dusty or just from a different source)? Or with turning on your furnace for the first time (I mention this one because it bothers me A LOT and some of my bunnies to a lesser extent).

I absolutely agree that you should have your bunny checked by a rabbit-savvy vet. The answers to the above questions, however, would influence what I would personally expect froma vet appointment: whether I press for a C&S; whether I feel the need to come home with drugs at all; whether I'm comfotable with a newer or stronger antibiotic(because of severity of symptoms).

A few other things to consider:

  1. Culture/sensitivity results vary in "usefulness". We generally get very good results with ear cultures. Nasal cultures often come back inconclusive. A "deep nasal" culture is more likely to result in useful information, but can be stressful to collect ... and still may come back with questionable results.
  2. If you do opt for the C&S, ask if your vet to look into whether s/he can request that specific drugs be used in the sensitivity portion. As I understand it (and I may be wrong here), use a certain number of "dishes" to see if anything grows, then test each that shows growth with a separate antibiotic. The difficulty with rabbits is that most labs "waste" at least threesamples on amoxicillin, ampicillin, and clavamox, none of which can be given to rabbits.
  3. The more time I spend working in the pharmaceutical industry, the less sure I am that drugs are always necessary. You always have to balance the benefits against the potential side effects. Randy is certainly right about Baytril and Bactrim being used so much in rabbits that many bacteria are now resistant to these drugs. The flip-side for the newer/less-used drugs is what my husband's neurologist pointed out when he was one of the early patients to try a new MS drug 15 years ago: "Remember that the side-effects that occur only in 1/500 or 1/1000 patients may not have surfaced yet." What she didn't say (but I knew) was "... and often those are the life-threatening side-effects." It is OK to come home from a vet appointment with out drugs to give (in fact, my family thinks that is more than OK!).
  4. Another factorthat Dr. Allan and I now consider when somebunny's symptoms areminoris how much the particular bunny is stressed by the process of giving medication, since stress itself impairs the immune system. For minor symptoms in a bunny who really hates to be handled, she often sends me home with medication to start giving if the symptoms worsen. That allows me torelax so the bunny's own body can fight the infection. Often, I try offering (as treats) some herbs (echinacea and golden seal in leaf or cut root form) to help boost the immune system.
Ihave had several bunnies come through my home in the last 5-10 years who have had mild-but-chronic respiratory symptoms that did not respond to antibiotic treatment. After trying 2-3 antibiotics with only minor improvement, Dr. Allan and I have opted to just "watch." Oliver (who came to me at age 10) lived to be 13). Chip (who came to me at 5) is now 13.5 -- blind as a bat but still feisty.

Kathy Smith
 
krsbunny wrote:
I have some questions on the original post (and I apologize in advance if this was covered somewhere else and I just didn't see it): What symptoms does your rabbit have that make you suspect pasteurella? Sneezing? Drippy eyes? Nasal discharge? If eye or nose discharge, is it wet and clear? Milky? Colored? Or ...?

How is your rabbit acting in general? Seeming just fine or "under the weather?" Would you consider appetite, "output", and activity levels normal or not?

How severe are the symptoms? How long have they been going on? Could its start have coincided with opening a new bag of food or box of hay (that is perhaps more dusty or just from a different source)? Or with turning on your furnace for the first time (I mention this one because it bothers me A LOT and some of my bunnies to a lesser extent).

Well at first he was just having icky eyes with clear liquid so we took him to the vethe said his eyes were inflammed and the gave him eye drops (which im thinking was a bad idea.) Now his eyes are more goopy with a milky liquid, His nose is wet, he sounds like a person with a very stuffy nose, and he sneezes every once in a while.

Can anyone tell me, i posted on another forum i go on and they thought maybe his lymph nodes (sp?) are swollen. Under his arms when i pick him up, on both sides, he has little balls not like bumps on top of his skin but something in him. Have these always been there and i havent notice or what? It may be nothing but i still want to ask. I will still bring it up to my vet.

He is acting fine. I still let him run in the living room and i havent noticed much. I cant tell about his water intake as it seems like less but im not sure. As in the last monthi've started giving him a bowl and a bottle so he may be drinking more in the bowl as i can tell he drinks a lot less from the bottle. But im not sure as i still refill them both and havent kept too close of an eye on it.

There isnt anything that i can think of off the top of my eyes that would cause stress in him. He got new toys a little while ago, but could that do anything?

Also Kathy, on your numbertwo what do you mean.? Do you mean i suggest drugs for him to test or asking him what he is testing ahead of time?

Thanks kathy for that post, its really helpful!
 
I'm not sure I have ever felt swollen lymph nodes on a bunny, but it makes sense that this could a symptom of a bacterial infection that needs treatment. I know I've personally had swollen lymph nodes in the neck with infections like strep.

I doubt new toys would have anything to do with this ... OTOH, depending on what they were could he possibly be allergic to something about them? Just a thought.

On my #2 in the previous post ... if you and your vet are discussing doing a culture/sensitivity, I would suggest saying something like: "I've heard that many labs automaticallytest for senstivity to amoxicillin, ampicillin, and clavamox, none of which should be used on rabbits.Does your lab do this? If so, is there a way to request that they test for sensitivity toother drugs and what ones do you recommend?" I know some of the labs (Antech, specifically) have exotics specialists that Dr. Allan has consulted with and found to be extremely helpful. It may bethat a call to the lab needs tobe made ahead of time to ask if (and how) such can be requested.

The above approach is reasonable and respectful and has the potential to elicit other important information. For example, if the vet tries to tell you amoxicillin is OK for rabbits ... I recommend finding a different vet.

A culture/sensitivity is not cheap (an it is OK to ask the cost and allow that to be a factor in deciding whether to have it done.As your vet's opinion as to whether the test is likely to yield helpful results ... in the current economy it is perfectly reasonable to make it clear that you need to get as much information as possible from the test.

The key (IMO) is not to act like you are telling your vet how to do his/her job. Ask question, listen openly to your vet's answers, and "trust your gut" when making decisions.

Kathy
 
I'll make sure to bring up the statement about what they test on the culture. Or if i dont have it done i'll make sure they dont give any of those to my rabbit.

Im not sure i'll have the test for sure, a while ago (maybe a year) my guinea pig had mites and they did a scrape test. I would of never allowed them to do it if i knew it would hurt her that bad, plus it showed mites but we still treated he for it and of course it worked. It was a waste to pay 25 dollars for them to hurt her and get no results.
 
Here's a video in which a vet discusses and demonstrates Pasteurella testing.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KigE340ylww]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KigE340ylww[/ame]
 
I wasn't real happy with the sequencing of the swabbing, either. Skyler (my rabbit in the video) wasn't happy with any of it! Sending hopes and prayers that your rabbit is Pasteurella free!
 

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