Animal Rights vs. Animal Welfare

[Daenerys]

I can't afford meat at all, locally farmed or not. I have to live off those $1.25 microwaveable dinners...oh how I long for the day I am no longer a poor college student.

 

[BethM]

Myia09 wrote:

I am sure people used to spend more on food before inflation happend. Before everything became a lot more expensive...and taxes went up.

People used to spend a higher percentage of their income on food. Has nothing to do with taxes or inflation. It has to do with people being greedy and superficial and wanting to buy a new cell phone every year, or always having to have the newest tv, or having to travel every summer, or wanting a house that is three times bigger than they need and then stuffing it full of things they don't need. I don't know a lot of people who are willing to save for things now, either, it all has to be instant. Now, it seems that most people value quality food a lot less than they value new gadgets. Thus, they demand cheap food prices, and mass-producers are creating this for them, sometimes at the expense of the animals they are raising. (Other times at the expense of their workers, but this topic isn't about that.)

Plus, inflation isn't exactly a recent invention. LOL. It was going on back then, too.

And I don't live in a "rural" area, thank you. It just happens to have a climate that allows for food items to grow.

 

[Myia09]

Well, I didn't mean rural in a bad way.
But I guess ARizona is one of those places..it is hard to grow food and raise animals..but you would be displacing the third largest city in america!

But inflation is realative; yes inflation has always been around, but the american dollar is at its worse now, and worth less, so yes, it makes a huge difference!

But yes..people are more superficial..but again..that isn't going to change. And I know (esp for myself personally) I would LIKE to buy organic food, but there is no money between rent, insurance, school, phone bill (I have a dated phone with limited everything) to spend $6 on a pound of meat!

 

[Luvmyzoocrew]

TwistedSerpent wrote:

The youtube video of HSUS is a prime example of what I said about when they get too much negitive press they will put a very small amount of the actual money they get just to take the heat off of them, and of course they advertise it as if they do it often. The amount of money they get if they put it all towards actual shelters and helping animals it would actually make a difference, but they dont, howevery they make huge claims and implications that they do. Their name itself is an example, when people think of humane socity they think of actual shelters, thousands are donated to them based on that alone, too many people think they are an actual shelter.

Unfortunatly with the meat and food business we only ever see the bad examples and we see it over and over again, with many exaggerations and skewed information delivered by these animal rights groups. I can guarentee you most are not like that, most people who deal with livestock on a commercial level and smaller know that if their stock isnt healthy their product wont be. The FDA has extremely strict regulations as well. Many think dairy cows have it rough but in many of these top places its often more like cow spas. Animal activitsts simply overglorify and exaggerate and drill it in to where many people think thats always how it is when in fact its not. Actually PETA has been quoted to say they would rather have animals dead then in captivity or something along the lines, and do actually put down a lot of the animals they get. Search youtube for the Penn and Teller show about them.

Hunting, and the fee's paid for licences and tags has done far far more benefit to our natural land and resources, as well as the simple fact that it helps keep populations healthy. Many places are so overrun with deer and other game that without actually taking some out many are literally starving to death in the winter. They feast in the fields and multiply like crazy, but the land just cant support them all. Plus hunting is probably one of the most humane sources of meat too, the animal lived how it was ment to, wild and unpenned and died very quickly.

Also think of this too, nature isnt humane, predetor and prey as well as natural happenings can be extremely rough. The life we offer them even if we plan on consuming them is a whole nother world and much more kinder.

I will have to agree to disagree i guess, i am not pro Peta and am no Pro HSUS , I truely dont believe that these Factory Farm animals are living in a "spa". I feel "FOR ME" that going locally, small scale is better for me.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Hmm... well, I will say that I personally believe that an animal under human care has a right to humane treatment (food, water, health), and a quick death that does not prolong suffering.

The concept of a bill of rights for animals brings me back to Koko the Gorilla. She is a sentient, high-functioning being who has effectively adapted ASL into her method of communication. While she can't contemplate black holes and quarks with ease, she is able to show love to a kitten, and speak through ASL about what she sees, feels, and wants.

I can't even contemplate choosing to euthanise someone like Koko - she is a "someone", with all the capacities of a human child.

And, if Koko is able to communicate with ASL, what about the other animals? What happens when we are finally able to communicate clearly with them? I think welfare and rights discussions will take on a whole new level of meaning.

Points to ponder, eh?

 

[TwistedSerpent]

I do agree that local farms are better as they produce a much better product and much prefer them over the large productions, I was just stating that we as the general public really dont know how they are kept or the goings on besides what these groups spit back out to us. The few glimpses I have seen though I havent seen anything majorly wrong, no neglect nor abuse like those videos show and am under the impression that those are not how the majority of factory farms operate. Of course conditions arent prime or optimum due to the demand of these meats, but even though I prefer wild or locally raised game I have no issues in that respect with store bought food.

I dont think we have to worry at all about animal rights with the more intellegent species until they become a lot higher advanced. Compared to us the most advanced of these are still young child level, none have shown the basic human points that allows us to have these rights. Until they start breaking away from primitive natural instincts there is no discussion. Yes they might have some of the more complex feelings however they are still very instinctual. Once we start getting into the areas of morals, virtues, right and wrong, art, religion, and other of the mental advances that seperate us from everything else then it will be a different matter, but until then I dont not want a creature that has no qualms about killing someone if instinctually it feels the need to any freedoms that it doesnt comprehend for the safety of both us and them. Basicly once we find out that these animals are able to comprehend that they should be allowed rights then discussions should be had. That his however not inculding the basic rights every single living thing from one celled organisms to us should have, the right physical needs met.


We can communicate with anything if we know how to speak their language. Once they start learnign ours is the next step however we are still limited by how quickly nature lets them evolve. When/if the time comes when they start realising that they should have these rights too then we will deal with it, however I would not let these crazy animal activists be the ones to decide it. Anyone who thinks letting a bunch of lab animals out free in the winter to starve or freeze is a good thing should not have a say in what a species has a right to have and do, a lot of people in these groups just dont have a healthy reality based view of how the world really is. Good or bad we have to look at all sides and find a median that works best.

 

[BethM]

Daenerys wrote:

I can't afford meat at all, locally farmed or not. I have to live off those $1.25 microwaveable dinners...oh how I long for the day I am no longer a poor college student.

Last I checked, there is meat in most of those. I eat a few microwave meals each week, it's a quick and easy meal when I'm too tired to cook dinner, or when I don't have a lunch to take with me to work. It is pretty difficult for me to find vegetarian microwave meals. I can basically choose from about 5 different Healthy Choice entrees, 3 different Kashi meals, or anything from Amy's. The majority the dinners in the frozen foods aisle have some sort of animal bits in them.

 

[BethM]

TwistedSerpent wrote:

I dont think we have to worry at all about animal rights with the more intellegent species until they become a lot higher advanced. Compared to us the most advanced of these are still young child level, none have shown the basic human points that allows us to have these rights. Until they start breaking away from primitive natural instincts there is no discussion. Yes they might have some of the more complex feelings however they are still very instinctual. Once we start getting into the areas of morals, virtues, right and wrong, art, religion, and other of the mental advances that seperate us from everything else then it will be a different matter, but until then I dont not want a creature that has no qualms about killing someone if instinctually it feels the need to any freedoms that it doesnt comprehend for the safety of both us and them.

There are humans on this planet that pretty much operate on a basic, instinctual level, too.

 

[TwistedSerpent]

It might be protien but can we really call it meat? I have found although pricey at the start you actually often save money buy buying fresh. You spend more to begin with but it lasts longer as there is much more of it, tastes so much better, and is so much more healthier. A whole chicken thrown in with some veggies will last me a good 3 days, fills me up better, isnt made of pure salt, and in the end with all the food I actually save money instead of buying so many of those one dollar boxes of cardboard and salt.

 

[Amy27]

undergunfire wrote:

I'm more for animal welfare, but I also see many points of animal rights. I don't eat meat and I don't agree with most of the ways animals are raised for food...but I don't bash on people who do eat meat - I just wish they'd get their meat from places where they knew the animals were treated humanely before death (like local farms where they can visit). I also don't like rodeos, circuses, or hunting.

I agree, I don't eat meat and don't agree with most of the ways animals are raised for food. It doesn't bother me if other people eat meat. We all have to make decisions that are best for us.

I use to really believe local farms were better. Until recently locally there was a farm that was severly abusing their animals. I won't go into details because it is very graphic. Here is the link if you want to read about it, but be warned it is ***very graphic. **** http://www.mercyforanimals.org/ohdairy/This is a quote from the article: After viewing the footage, Dr. Bernard Rollin, distinguished professor of animal science at Colorado State University, stated: "This is probably the most gratuitous, sustained, sadistic animal abuse I have ever seen. The video depicts calculated, deliberate cruelty, based not on momentary rage but on taking pleasure through causing pain to cows and calves who are defenseless."

This farm is about 30 minutes from me. It is scary. Who can you trust? Even if you visited this farm, I doubt they would show this abuse in front of you. It is just aggravating.

 

[TwistedSerpent]

BethM wrote:

TwistedSerpent wrote:

I dont think we have to worry at all about animal rights with the more intellegent species until they become a lot higher advanced. Compared to us the most advanced of these are still young child level, none have shown the basic human points that allows us to have these rights. Until they start breaking away from primitive natural instincts there is no discussion. Yes they might have some of the more complex feelings however they are still very instinctual. Once we start getting into the areas of morals, virtues, right and wrong, art, religion, and other of the mental advances that seperate us from everything else then it will be a different matter, but until then I dont not want a creature that has no qualms about killing someone if instinctually it feels the need to any freedoms that it doesnt comprehend for the safety of both us and them.

There are humans on this planet that pretty much operate on a basic, instinctual level, too.

Yes, however what I suggest for them is usually thought of as illegal

 

[Daenerys]

BethM wrote:

Daenerys wrote:

I can't afford meat at all, locally farmed or not. I have to live off those $1.25 microwaveable dinners...oh how I long for the day I am no longer a poor college student.

Last I checked, there is meat in most of those. I eat a few microwave meals each week, it's a quick and easy meal when I'm too tired to cook dinner, or when I don't have a lunch to take with me to work. It is pretty difficult for me to find vegetarian microwave meals. I can basically choose from about 5 different Healthy Choice entrees, 3 different Kashi meals, or anything from Amy's. The majority the dinners in the frozen foods aisle have some sort of animal bits in them.

I know, I meant I couldn't afford to buy the meat in the meat section of the grocery store. I doubt they offer the choice between factory farmed and locally grown meat in microwaveable dinners...

 

[Daenerys]

NorthernAutumn wrote:

Hmm... well, I will say that I personally believe that an animal under human care has a right to humane treatment (food, water, health), and a quick death that does not prolong suffering.

The concept of a bill of rights for animals brings me back to Koko the Gorilla. She is a sentient, high-functioning being who has effectively adapted ASL into her method of communication. While she can't contemplate black holes and quarks with ease, she is able to show love to a kitten, and speak through ASL about what she sees, feels, and wants.

I can't even contemplate choosing to euthanise someone like Koko - she is a "someone", with all the capacities of a human child.

And, if Koko is able to communicate with ASL, what about the other animals? What happens when we are finally able to communicate clearly with them? I think welfare and rights discussions will take on a whole new level of meaning.

Points to ponder, eh?

So because a gorilla is smart enough to use sign language, animals should be given rights?

Koko is one animal. And she is still an animal, even if she does have the intelligence of a human child. The majority of animals are not that smart. Most are purely instinctual.

Think about this: would you let a young child live an adult life? Children are still expected to live under the care of their parents. Koko is stuck at the intelligence of a child, I highly doubt she will make it to the intelligence of an adult human (which is quite variable anyways). Therefore, I don't think just because a gorilla can use sign language that animals should be given any sort of rights.

 

[fuzz16]

wow...

the right to food
the right to fresh clean water
the right to not be slaughtered inhumanely
the right to not be tortured
the right to be loved by someone

animals do have rights.
they have the right to a healthy life without pain and suffering just as humans so do.

WE AS HUMANS should reconize this as OUR duty.

 

[TwistedSerpent]

Those arent the rights being discussed though, we all know and agree that every living thing has those no matter what.

At issue here are groups that feel animals have more rights then that, that they should all run free uncontrolled and untouched by us, and that they shouldnt be used or kept by us.

However, a big point is that nature does not always provide those basic rights, and that us as their keepers and protectors are the ones who allows them to live life safe and happy. Animal welfare is just that, those who see the importance we have in keeping and controling them as well as the importance they have to us, instead of those who feel animals have the right to do what they want when they want and we cant do a thing about them or with them. You can imagine what sort of troubles that would cause.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

 

[kirbyultra]

NorthernAutumn wrote:
Whatcha trying to say, Autumn? :biggrin:

 

[Daenerys]

TwistedSerpent wrote:

Those arent the rights being discussed though, we all know and agree that every living thing has those no matter what.

At issue here are groups that feel animals have more rights then that, that they should all run free uncontrolled and untouched by us, and that they shouldnt be used or kept by us.

However, a big point is that nature does not always provide those basic rights, and that us as their keepers and protectors are the ones who allows them to live life safe and happy. Animal welfare is just that, those who see the importance we have in keeping and controling them as well as the importance they have to us, instead of those who feel animals have the right to do what they want when they want and we cant do a thing about them or with them. You can imagine what sort of troubles that would cause.

Exactly! Thank you.

The rights you listed, fuzz16, are not the rights being discussed here as they are the rights every living thing has. Beyond that is when things change.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Gah... computer is eating posts

I was trying to say that I agree with the rights that fuzz16 wrote down. She said exactly what I'm trying to indicate.

There is a set of intrinsic rights, as fuzz 16 wrote, that need to be adhered to. Unfortunately, courts don't necessarily think of these items as rights, as much as "welfare is an optional human thing to confer when we see fit."

Instead of rights be optional as people see fit, there needs to be a strict standard, with substantial punishment for violating an animal's intrinsic rights... not the 6 months in jail and a $500 fine bogus sentencing for those convicted of unnecessary harm to an animal. Rights carry more weight in court than human-determined optional welfare. I think the animal welfare movement is fab- iit just needs a bit more strength in the courts. Classifying intrinsic animal req's as rights would help with that.

As our knowledge and ability to communicate with animal species on a 1-1 level increases, dilemmas like Koko will continue to come up. When people say, "oh , but she's only functioning like a child...", that stilll indicates that she is operating on a human level. Once you know that she functions on the level of a human child, then it is really impossible not to accord her the rights of a human child.
Obviously, a electoral vote won't be much use to her, but to decide to euthanize her would be the same as euthanizing a child.
She is more capable in a human capacity than comatose persons, or those in vegetative state; however, they still retain their human rights.

Anyhoo...

These are really complex moral issues that only get more complex with time and knowledge. I'm trying to be as open as possible to the fact that humans are just animals, like all the rest. It is hard for us to accept that sometimes - but it's on these sticking points that we should be as non-anthropocentric as possible.
I know that my views on this topic have developed and changed over time as I learn more about the world around me. I'm not willing to draw lines in the sand where animals and humans begin anymore... I need a "range of grey" perspective- black and white is too simplistic!


* Daenerys, we are all trying to participate in this discussion. You left it very open-ended at the beginning for contemplation, and people are writing in with their personal perspectives.
Please don't shoot their ideas down... more thoughts from a number of people lead to a fuller and richer conversation, right?

 

[Daenerys]

I never shot anyone's ideas down, I am just stating my opinion like everyone else. I just don't agree that because a gorilla has the intelligence of a human child means it should be thought of as a human child. It is still an adult gorilla.