Abcesses

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peppa and georgie

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This is generally to find info on rabbit abcesses as have had a lot of experience in the past but never quite conquered them. Was mentioning on another thread but advised to start a new one. I am hoping you will have some insight randy....
 
Hi,

A true abscess is sometimes very challenging to resolve. As recently as a few years ago, most rabbits with a true abscess didn't survive thru both pain, infection, a combination of both or inadequate medical response. Then there was a procedure, that has since been pretty much abandoned by all the top doctors, that surgically implanted antibiotic laced beads directly into the abscess. Good idea on paper that was usually unsuccessful. Very painful and expensive. Many of the early beads contained an antibiotic known as Clindamycin....and if that drug ever gets to the GI....the fat lady sings because it is usually over as this drug absolutely devastates all the beneficial bacteria.

The first step in treating a true abscess is a proper diagnosis. An abscess will become "walled off" and will be encapsulated by a very thick wall of pus. The core will contain faculative and obligate anaerobic bacteria.....and that set up is very difficult to treat. There are some issues misdiagnosed (or maybe it would be more inaccurate terminology) asabscesses that are not true abscesses. A true abscess will not respond to drugs such as Baytril or Sulfa drugs (such as SMZ, Septrin, Septra, Bactrim, etc). True abscesses will have "tag along" bacteria that these drugs may be effective against the secondary infections but not the primary. Staph infections, which staph is the most common surface skin pathogen, is usually responsive to Sulfa drugs (noting that oral Sulfa has been linked to a serious GI issue called Tyzzer's Disease). We have also seen a bacteria called Peptostretococcus "free ride"on the surface ofan abscess (and this is usually sensitive to Doxycycline).

I have had perfect success in treating major abscessesusing a combination of Pen G (commonly called Bicillin and available under a variety ofbrand names in the US....not available in all countries with theUK being one of them). This drug contains a combination Procaine and Benzathine. In those countries this combo isn't available, the Procaine aspect usually is available and that results in a different dosing protocol as this is a short lived drug and is purged from the body quickly. I use it in conjunction withZithromax (again at one time a couple of years ago Zithromax was not available for vet use in the UK but I know it is being used now). This combo of drugs is capable of penetrating the encapsulation around the core....and the core is where the drugs need to be. And this drug combo is effective against nearly all the bacteria that can be found in the core of the abscess. I do not open an abscess.....not saying it is never appropriate since that would be determined by the location of the infecton and the involvement of surrounding tissues/bones.

The keys to treating an abscess are not much different than any other infection. Early detection, know what you are treating and what is effective against it and have a total support protocol in place. Radiographs are always useful to detect any collateral involvement of other tisses or bones (especially with jaw abscesses). And remember that these abscesses are very painful so aggressive pain management should be in place. And as you already know, have a plan in place and stick with it.

Randy
 
Thank you Randy, i had read somewhere on the net about someone successfully using bicilin and asked my vet when my last bunny had one but he had not heard of it and stated nothing really cures the abcess. In the long ago past the only times my bunnies have survived is with amputation of the area, an eye, an ear and a section of skin etc around the jaw.
I often would find a bunny with a small lump and if left alone it cleared up but on other times have treated aggressively with flushing and antibiotics and it has continued to spread and i have felt like fiddling about with it was making it worse.
What you have said about misdiagnosis would explain that.
I was also wondering have you ever heard of people using coloidal silver?? A well known natural antibiotic that is supposed to kill all one celled organisms within 6 mins of contact. I also found on net someone who treats their rabbits with this and on looking through all info on the product it was mentioned that it was able to cure a rabbit with myxymatosis and all info seems to mention that it is able to deal with up to ten times the lethal dose of tetanus on a rabbit. My account of it here is not very accurate as am only putting down what i remember to have read. Do you know much about it or its useage, i am aware that it is not regulated so difficult to acess but all the same what is your opinion xx
 
Your vet's response isn't surprising. They are quite a few years behind the curve when it comes to more modern treatments. If your vet is interested in reviewing my protocols, I would be happy to consult via e-mail.

Colloidal Silver is certainly an intersting treatment. I do know of one person that takes it all the time and swears by it. And he doesn't seem to get sick. But my concern is that you are putting something akin to a heavy metal into the body. And with the way the renal system functions in a rabbit...I would be concerned about a condition known as Argyria. It's a condition in which the small particles of silver in this compound will basically lodge in different parts of the body (a very simplified explanation). I would be very concerned about the kidneys.

And I hate to hear a vet saying you can't cure an abscess. If you go back in the archives, you will read the story about JoJo. A forum member was very instrumental in getting JoJo transported hundreds of miles to be treated here. He had a huge jaw abscess that it seems the vets in Florida gave up on. I treated him with Pen G and Zithromax. He has been here a couple of years now if I remember correctly and his abscess has not returned. You have to treat the cause and not the symptoms to resolve an abscess. That is why a proper diagnosis is so important. Surface skin issues that mimic an abscess are treated differently. That is where most inexperiencedvets make their mistake (no flaming intended to your vet....they really don't get any training on this stuff and try to treat like you would a dog or cat). I have successfully treated numerous abscesses here....all without surgery. And again, not saying surgery won't be necessary in some situations but it is always a treatment of last resort for me.

Randy
 
Thank you Randy, yes i myself have been taking coloidal silver and have managed to avoid all the kids illness etc.
I did with my previous rabbit try flushing an abcess with coloidal silver and it did have a funny effect, the usual cottage cheese like pus seemed to turn to liquid that ran out like that of a cats abcess. However although the wound healed well etc, it had spread internally unfortunately.
yes should i come across another abcess (fingers crossed not to but a high percentage of the rabbits i have had have had one) i would very much appreciate being able to put my vet in contact with you thank you.
Unfortunately the only pain medication you get here is what they inject while in the surgery and they do not offer any to take home. Do you have your own website showing the work you do with rabbits etc?
 
Your situation is what I see all the time.....if vets are going to treat rabbits, they need to understand rabbits. All of my vets are quick on the trigger for pain meds.....for any species.....as we know that recovery is much easier if there is pain management.

I have a web site but there is not any medical information....only general information and profiles of some of my rabbits. Because I am not a vet, legal issues prevent me from legally posting medical information. And there are too many variables in medical treatment to post very technical information for general consumption. I haven't had time to updatethe sitein quite some time. But if you want to take a look..... www.rabbitresq.org

One of my volunteers has also started a small web site for our wildlife rescue....and I concentrate totally on wildlife now. It's www.rockymountwildliferehabbers.org You can see some of our work there.

Randy


 
About colloidal silver: it is considered a nanomaterial, and as such not a lot is known about its safety. I know of some studies about silver nanoparticles causing developmental problems. Very few of these new materials have been intensely studied, and I personally won't take anything as a drug unless it is approved by our Food and Drug Agency (FDA) to treat the condition of interest without causing adverse side effects, and reading up at least on the package insert with the drug what the side effects are and what potentially increases your risk of having them. Large safety studies need to be conducted in an environment of utmost care, and the data needs to be looked at by experts, before I am comfortable taking things like this. There will always be anecdotes of people taking one thing or another and having success, but only large-scale clinical trials have the power to show something really works or really doesn't, what side effects there can be, and some statistical information on how effective the drug is.
 
Thanks Randy i am going to go have a look that will be really interesting. xx
Tony i know where you are coming from, i am perhaps sometimes a little too open to experimentation etc and do love to hear all the stories of people swearing by one thing or another. lol xx
 
I´ve seen quite a bit of information about abscess treatment and someone pointed me to this thread which has made interesting reading especiallly as I´m going through this treatment right now with my little boy although not with the Zithromax just the bicilin. The change in the size of the abscess over the last two weeks has been amazing and I am so glad my vet had the know how to start this treatment. I would be interested to know how long you think that the treatment should last once the pus has gone to ensure that it clears up completely.
 
I've only ever dealt with an abscess once. I think I got fairly lucky. One day I noticed my mini rex Lucy had a bald lump on her chin, about the size of a chickpea. It just came out of nowhere. I thought it was probably an abscess, and I was really worried because I'd read horror stories of how difficult they are to treat. I took Lucy to the vet the Monday after (found it Saturday night), and the vet aspirated some pus out. She's a hollistic vet, and started with a very mild treatment. She just aspirated it and told me to massage it twice daily with a warm wet cloth and apply some kind of holistic antibiotic cream (I forget what it was called). I took Lucy back a few days later and I didn't think it was working... a bit the lump was still there and the skin had closed over. The vet said she thought it was just swollen. I was about to take Lucy to a different vet for some serious treatment, when all of a sudden the bump completely disappeared within 10 days of the first vet visit. That was over two years ago, and she's had no problems since them. The vet thinks she probably had gotten a scratch on her chin and it got infected.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend this treatment, but I think the reason it worked for Lucy was because the abscess was fairly superficial and small and she didn't have any other underlying problems causing the abscess (like bad teeth). I was just really happy that she had healed so fast and with such gentle treatment.
 
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