6 week olds and mucoid enteropathy

Rabbits Online Forum

Help Support Rabbits Online Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I am currently battling this.. just had a second baby die in my arms from it around 2 am this morning.

I found something somewhat helpful from another breeder, as far as hydrating, and actually, my remaining babies condition have improved dramatically..

But by no means is it a miracle fix..

I am in the middle of some horse issues right now, and I need to go attend to one of mine.. but when I get a minute to breathe, I will sit down and detail whats going on, and what I have found that has helped..

Prolly later on tonight..
 
I would like to add.. the babies I am currently dealing with are between 3 to 4 weeks old, a bit younger, but still same symptoms..
 
I had this same problem this past fall. Kits would be 6 weeks still with mom and dead in the a.m.

I started checking buts if I saw loose bowels( diahrea) I treated with corrid for 5 days and gave a bowl of pedyalite in the cage along with a crock of plain water. So far so good. The kits suck down the pedialyte. I put peyalite in everyday till they stop drinking it.
 
Alright, I am back..

Now I realize BlueGiants asked if this might be genetic. I can't actually answer that, but I can offer some advice on what has worked for me.

I originally had 2 litters..one was of 4, the other was of 8. It was actually more than that, but what ended up surviving longer than a few hours after birth was 12. Regardless, the original mother of 8 died, so we fostered them off to the mother of 4. That doe ended up getting Mastitis. So we had to resort to bottle feeding them. I used Randy's instructions and formula advice down to the letter,hydrating and Bene-Bac.. I still lost 2.. messy butt, then mucous. I managed to save 10.. I thought I was out of the woods, 4 days ago we awoke to one dead severely bloated baby. All of them got the messy butt again, with the green mucous. Again Randy came to the rescue and we pretty much followed the same protocol.

I still lost another baby this morning, same circumstances.

The rest had the messy butts and were beginning to bloat despite my best efforts. A late night chat with Peg helped a bunch, and she referred me to this website.

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/Holland-Lops-and-Diarrhea.htm

Randy will prolly tar and feather me for this, but honestly, the babies were behind the 8 ball, the prognosis looked grim. So my thinking was.. if they are going to most likely die anyway.. lets give this a try... a last ditch effort.

So I tried the ORT (Oral Rehydration Therapy) recipe on the page.. it is as follows..

1 cup clean water
2 teaspoons sugar
1/4 teaspoon baking soda
3/16 teaspoon salt (take some out of a 1/4 tsp. or use a rounded 1/8 tsp.)






The article also went on to say..


"This formula differed from ones I'd previously used by having baking soda in it. But because I had read that the bunny's system is probably more acid when it is sick like this, I thought it might be a good thing to include the soda. One article said that the system would be so acid that using probiotics might be useless since they would die in the high acid environment before they could colonize the colon again."




I am not a vet... but I do know a few things about domestic and farm animals, I am also a Forensic Toxicologist by trade, and honestly, thats just a basic law of chemistry, in a roundabout way. The theory of the baking soda is sound... I have seen it used in other applications in the field, which I won't divulge here..so I know what it can and cannot do. It made sense to me. So I began my first go at it last night. All drank eagerly. I also made a slurry of sorts out of Bananas, pellets and pedialyte. About half ate it willingly and eagerly, the others I managed to get some down them by syringe. After about 30 minutes after they finished eating and drinking, I Bene-Bac'ed them all. I hoped and prayed for the best.

By my 6 am feeding.. 5 of the 8 had dry butts, I rehydrated again using my homemade ORT recipe, and Bene-Bac-ed again. By this evening.. ALL have dry butts, and some are beginning to excrete normal-ish poops. I gave them some Timothy Hay, and a bit of Quaker Oats. Again they all ate eagerly.. ALL of them. I left to go to the Gym and Tan and beat my daughter profusely about the head and shoulders (joke people.. I didn't beat her, but I felt like slapping her upside the head). I came back about 3 hours later, my son Blake kept vigil over them. All are still dry butt-ed, and eager. Some are grooming themselves again.

I would also like to add, that I have them in a small cage.. some of you have seen the pics of it. I have a heating pad in the bottom with several layers of t-shirts on top of it. I keep it on med, and turn it off several times a day. I have a towel over the cage to keep it dark and not so drafty. I must stress that it is NOT ok to leave a heating pad on babies.. especially unattended. Especially fur less ones. But mine are between 3 and 4 weeks. I slept on the couch with them beside me in their cage all night. I set my cell phone alarm to wake me at 45 minute intervals. They were always supervised.. I firmly believe that the warm surface for them to lay their belly's on helped a tremendous lot. Many slept with their legs behind them.. flat bellied on the bottom of the cage. I know when my tummy is upset, heat helps.. so I thought it would do well for them as well.

The change in my 8 remaining babies is amazing.. like I said, I figured it wouldn't hurt to try one last thing. I don't know if this will work for everybody, but it worked for me, and as 8 pm tonight, they are all still dry butts and eating.

I followed this regimen on this website to the letter.. tomorrow I will begin day 2's therapy.

I would love to hear anyone else's opinions or input on this.

I for one am just elated the babies may have a chance still.








 
GoinBackToCali wrote:
So I tried the ORT (Oral Rehydration Therapy) recipe on the page.. it is as follows..

1 cup clean water
2 teaspoons sugar
1/4 teaspoon baking soda
3/16 teaspoon salt (take some out of a 1/4 tsp. or use a rounded 1/8 tsp.)
This is just the standard recipe for homemade Pedialyte, baking soda included. Rehydration therapy has to be helpful IMO.


GoinBackToCali wrote:
...One article said that the system would be so acid that using probiotics might be useless since they would die in the high acid environment before they could colonize the colon again."

This has been a common argument in the rabbit world, everybody has an opinion on it. I'm still looking for a note that outlined more info on probiotics, but between that and my own experience, I've been swayed that they can be very helpful.



sas :bunnydance:
 
Ok.. question. I have tried giving the babies the store bought pedialyte and they have fought me tooth and nail, and not eager to drink at all.

Do you think maybe the taste is different or something?
 
Mine suck up the flavored Pedialyte but not the unflavored. (And at least one is fussy about the brand -- she'll only drink the Pedialyte brand, not the drug store's generic brand).



sas :?
 
Really appreciate the info. I'm willing to try it. I already got them to take Critical Care tonight with Probiotics. And they took a lot. One of themhas a nice clean butt. THe other two are questionable.But they were looking better and washing themselves when we got done. But I'll try your recipe for the early morning feeding. Thanks very much.

I agree Pipp. I think the probiotics help too... I've seen major improvements in some pretty sick buns.


 
Just a quick question to ponder here regarding using baking soda and probiotics. The situation in a weaning rabbit's gut is the fact that the gut is converting to an acidic adult envirionment. Now....the baking soda will neutralize the acid. Isthat what you really need to do? How do you control the amount of neutralization? But what exactly does the probiotics do? Probiotics contain acidophilus. Notice the first four letters. If you give a rabbit baking soda, or an antacid like Tums or Rolaids, you are neutralizing the acid that the beneficial bacteria needs to thrive. The bacteria in most probiotics are not the strains that grow naturally in a rabbit's gut....it works by acidifying the intestinal tract and providing a stable environment. I would like to open this to discussion...but it appears that by using baking soda and probiotics that a situation is being created that goes from one extreme to the other....the exact opposite of what I would be trying to do. As I have said before...steady the ship...that gut does not like rapid changes in either direction.

I can see the lines of thought here. I am going back to cottontails since I do so many of the kits...and raise them from pinkies in which many times they have had very limited feedings from their mother. I attempt to control the conversion by using probiotics. It is going to go acidic in a live weaned rabbit anyway....why use something to neutralize the acid? It has to convert at some point. The other thought I see here is to use baking soda to slow and extend the conversion. But how do you control the amount of acid neutralized and how do you handle the pH conversion that has to happen?

Just a little fuel added to the fire....eagerly awaiting comments.

Randy
 
Randy,

I love it when you add "fuel to the fire" cause I always learn so much...

What do you think about the fact that these kits have gone from having problems with wet butts and stuff....to having normal poops? Can you address that at all?

Just curious.....

Peg
 
Ok, using my training, my EXACT thought was to use baking soda to slow and extend the conversion.

My biggest question was exactly how do I gauge the amount. I don't. I am sure with more thought on the matter I could come up with some formulation. But as I said, at the time, the situation was grim, and I figured it couldn't hurt any more than them dying already.

Fortunately, it is working out well.

I am open for the discussion as well...

Randy the firestoker...

That's a new one..LOL
 
Well, if this is a recipe for a home made pedialyte, and we givePedialyte to them anyway, do you think it would affect them much?The baking soda is a very small amount in a cup of water.
 
Peg,

Perhaps the ones who have succumbed werent the hardiest of the litter..and the others have a strong will to survive..

I have noticed.. as with every thing else.. Rabbits either decide to die, or decide to fight..maybe what's left are my Freedom Fighters.. My Scotsmen...
 
GoinBackToCali wrote:
Ok.. question. I have tried giving the babies the store bought pedialyte and they have fought me tooth and nail, and not eager to drink at all.

Do you think maybe the taste is different or something?
my buns suck down the plain pedialyte and the nature trail recipe
 
The litter is now down to two. One is doing very well, the other is isn't. They are both on Critical Care 3 times a day, mixed with probiotics and warm water. Theaffected onesgot sub-Q fluids last night and today. None of the other litters around them have been affected.

I agree that there are bacterial infections that can cause the same symptoms. But I do not think that is the case here. I do believe it is a genetic issue and my sweetTequila will be retired from breeding. (Just can't overlook the same thing happening 3 times in a row to the same doe.) She tries so hard to raise them and they just don't make it. I'm not giving up on the last two, not yet...




 
Both babies are eating oats and hay again. I tried Zin's recipe, once a day (in the evening). Tonight was the third time I gave it to them. (I stopped the subQ fluids too). The little blue one is still pretty skinny, but his butt is dry. (YEAHhhH!) And he's running around the cage, bugging his momma. The black boy is larger, weighs3.75 lbs. The blue is only 2.7 lbs. (I know, doesn't sound very small, but it issmall for a 6 week Flemish!).

As of today, I'm giving the blue boy Critical Care twice a day (mixed with a squirt of NutriCal) and rehydrating once a day with Zin's recipe. (The first night I went with half the baking soda, as of tonight I mixed it regular strength.) I syringed it into him, but he takes it willingly. I did notgive theCritical Care mixto the black boy as of tonight, he has no symptoms and is eatting (and pooping) just fine. (And the blue will eat the Critical Care mix right out of a little bowl!)

I'm really encouraged by the improvement in the blue and the lack of symptoms in the black. I'm disappointed that the other two didn't make it, but they were pretty far along when I started the treatment. (I'm taking this one day at a time and keeping my hopes up!)


 
I am sooooooooo pleased for you!!

The way I see it.. if it looks grim anyway, you really don't have anything to lose..

Mine are all back to eating and drinking and pooping nomrally..no messy butts, and about half's fur has fluffed back up (nappy fur means they are dehydrated)

I am so happy for you!!!!


 

Latest posts

Back
Top