What is the worst to mix with shadeds?

[Sabine]

Agoutis?! Right?
I breed Siamese Smokes and Sables and I've had a few instances where people asked me about what colour would go with them.
Shaded ND are very hard to come by here so I am never quite sure how to answer that question.
I guess sable/smoke marten wouldn't be too bad but what about otter (somebody actually asked me that)
Can someone give me an idea which colours are a total NoNo and which would still give decent even showable results.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Sabine

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

Good to breed to:
rew, black, blue (sometimes), sable point, siamese sable, smoke pearl, tort and blue tort, silver marten, sable marten, smoke pearl marten, himi.

Okay:
chestnut (at times!), otter, orange, fawn

Unsure:
steel, red, tans, lynx/opal (i don't think so, but not 100% sure),

Never:
Chocolate, Lilac, choc and lilac tort, BEW, chinchilla, squirrel, champagne.

 

[Sabine]

Thanks that gives me an idea. So I am actually wrong to say all agouti colours are out?
What would be the outcome of a siamese smoke & otter? Surely no smokes?

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

Smokes could -possibly- come out if the otter carries for both rew/himi, AND self... And dilute. That's a lot of what ifs.

But yeah, not -all- agoutis are out.... But I'd only use chestnut, with NO chinchilla or any other agouti behind it, and ONLY in complete desperation.

 

[Sabine]

Hmmm. I am pretty sure the person with the otter ND who approached me wouldn't know what's in the background of his rabbit. So it is probably safer to put him off? He'll surely end up with "shagoutis" whatever they look like:?

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

Otters can't carry agouti, they could however carry for chinchilla in the C gene, which isn't... really.. good...

But personally? If you have something to sell, they could use it essentially.

 

[Sabine]

I suppose they are tan (a[sup]t[/sup])
I just found the thread where I read they were genetically agouti
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=57345&forum_id=8
How is that possible?

 

[lelanatty]

Sabine wrote:

I suppose they are tan (a[suP]t[/suP])
I just found the thread where I read they were genetically agouti
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=57345&forum_id=8
How is that possible?

I was about to say something about this too. It says Otters are genotypically agouti. But the thing that is different about otters is that technically they are a "solid agouti" so you do not have to worry about "shagoutis" with an otter unless the otter has chestnut or chinchilla or one of the other agouti colors that has tickedfurin its background.

However, I thinkwhat Megan is trying to tell you is that if an otter carries the Cchl or Cchd genes, you can get sable marten or smoke pearl marten out of it when bred to a sable or smoke. So in that case it would be good to breed an otter to a shaded. If an otter does not carry Cchthen I think you will just get shadeds and otters out of that but probably not very many shadeds.

Shaded to shaded is what's best. Shaded to solid colors can come out good as well, as long as you watch what you are doing to make sure your shadeds don't get too dark or toolight. Shaded to otter, as said above, it just depends on the background. Shaded to agouti, in my very humble opinion, is a no no. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to do this, especially in netherland dwarfs because they are not showable colors. Also I must question the integrity of breeding shaded to orange or fawn, for the reason of the thread that you found where we are trying to determine if it is an orange or a tort otter. Orange and fawn are agouti colors as well.And then of course that weird color BEW is best to avoid altogether, for obvious reasons.

 

[Sabine]

I find it hard to understand how they don't carry Agouti but yet are "solid agoutis" . Is the tan pattern a variation of Agouti?
I personally only breed my shadeds together. Most of them carry REW and I kept one REW doe from a litter.
I saw that some people breed solid black (Megan?) to their shadeds. Out of curiosity - What does that achieve

 

[lelanatty]

Sabine wrote:

I find it hard to understand how they don't carry Agouti but yet are "solid agoutis" . Is the tan pattern a variation of Agouti?
I personally only breed my shadeds together. Most of them carry REW and I kept one REW doe from a litter.

I believe Megan is wrong in saying that Otters can't carry agouti. There are plenty of people I know who breed Chestnuts and Otters together and get chestnuts and otters from them. Those two colors work together very well to keep the chestnuts from getting too light colored. I right now have a doe who came out of a chestnut/otter pairing, and one of her brothers was a chestnut.

And to answer your question "Is the tan pattern a variation of Agouti?" Yes. All of the white and tan markings that appear on otters also appear on chestnuts, exactly the same. The only thing that isn't the same is that the otters do not have ticked fur like a chestnut. They just have solid colored fur, hence my calling them "solid agoutis."

 

[leo9lionheads]

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:

Good to breed to:
rew, black, blue (sometimes), sable point, siamese sable, smoke pearl, tort and blue tort, silver marten, sable marten, smoke pearl marten, himi.

Okay:
chestnut (at times!), otter, orange, fawn

Unsure:
steel, red, tans, lynx/opal (i don't think so, but not 100% sure),

Never:
Chocolate, Lilac, choc and lilac tort, BEW, chinchilla, squirrel, champagne.

Never shaded to silver marten either, its a otter chinchilla.

 

[lelanatty]

leo9lionheads wrote:

Never shaded to silver marten either, its a otter chinchilla.

How did we ever get Sable Marten then?

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

lelanatty wrote:

Sabine wrote:

I find it hard to understand how they don't carry Agouti but yet are "solid agoutis" . Is the tan pattern a variation of Agouti?
I personally only breed my shadeds together. Most of them carry REW and I kept one REW doe from a litter.

I believe Megan is wrong in saying that Otters can't carry agouti. There are plenty of people I know who breed Chestnuts and Otters together and get chestnuts and otters from them. Those two colors work together very well to keep the chestnuts from getting too light colored. I right now have a doe who came out of a chestnut/otter pairing, and one of her brothers was a chestnut.

And to answer your question "Is the tan pattern a variation of Agouti?" Yes. All of the white and tan markings that appear on otters also appear on chestnuts, exactly the same. The only thing that isn't the same is that the otters do not have ticked fur like a chestnut. They just have solid colored fur, hence my calling them "solid agoutis."

I'll give you that one. It's something in genetics that's an absolute freaky deal that doesn't follow the rules. From the rules, an at rabbit CANNOT carry A. However I agree, I do see it pop up. It's weird. It shouldn't happen. Or maybe it means we need to change the genetic rules to A and at being similar in dominance, and that at CAN carry A. Eh, dunno.

lelanatty wrote:

leo9lionheads wrote:

Never shaded to silver marten either, its a otter chinchilla.

How did we ever get Sable Marten then?

This is true. It does have the "dark chinchilla" gene...

However, it is missing out on the agouti. By being genetically self, it can only produce more selfs when bred to shadeds. That's what makes it great for a silver martin and sable marten program. Of course, once it carries shaded, it can also be nice for a siamese sable and sable point program. (Smoke pearls, too, but I try to stay away from dilute.)

One of my favorite breeders has her shaded nights, and then a silver marten line that she crosses when she feels the need to. Some of my babies from her have a silver marten x sable point breeding behind them, and they're perfectly fine. A little smutty, but I'll throw that on being a "seal point" or a cchl cchl sable point. I'm sure her kits will be nice and clean taken to a rew or himi.

 

[Shaded Night Rabbitry]

"However, I thinkwhat Megan is trying to tell you is that if an otter carries the Cchl or Cchd genes, you can get sable marten or smoke pearl marten out of it when bred to a sable or smoke. So in that case it would be good to breed an otter to a shaded. If an otter does not carry Cchthen I think you will just get shadeds and otters out of that but probably not very many shadeds.

Shaded to shaded is what's best. Shaded to solid colors can come out good as well, as long as you watch what you are doing to make sure your shadeds don't get too dark or toolight. Shaded to otter, as said above, it just depends on the background. Shaded to agouti, in my very humble opinion, is a no no. There just doesn't seem to be a reason to do this, especially in netherland dwarfs because they are not showable colors. Also I must question the integrity of breeding shaded to orange or fawn, for the reason of the thread that you found where we are trying to determine if it is an orange or a tort otter. Orange and fawn are agouti colors as well.And then of course that weird color BEW is best to avoid altogether, for obvious reasons."


Sorry, didn't press quote. LOL.
Otter to shaded, if the otter doesn't carry anything below a cchd, will only produce otters and silver martens. It's the second generation that may or may not start giving shadeds. That's why I brought in a broken black otter doe with outstanding type. I knew that I'll only be able to use her for a few months, but she'll do wonderful things for my program if the lines mesh right.

Depends on the shaded. Be careful mixing sable and black. That may darken them. But black to sable point has great effects on the color. You want a crisp brown (sepia) for their faces and feet and the likes. I've also heard that it helps clean body color. This may or may not be a good thing. Some judges want sable points that look like himis. Some want sable points that really show a saddle fading down to cream on the belly. It's a standard that's not super solid in how the color itself is judged. (And the difference can make or break the animal!)

Orange depends on what's behind it. Since it's non-extension, it can be useful to shadeds and torts. But it does create foxes, which you'd have to cull heavily for. There's a youth breeder north of me who was breeding sable points (the lines I use) to oranges (probably a similar line from OR), and was getting shadeds in the litters. You just have to learn genetics, and know your herd well.

That's why, whenever I breed and something pops up that changes the rabbit genetically, i write it down in my notebook. I'm slowly starting to fill out entire genetic codes for each rabbit. Like, Kiddo. aa B- cchl c DD ee. I'm just missing the B. And assuming he hasn't had chocolate in his blood for 12+ generations, it's likely that he's homozygous in that gene. however, i can't honestly tell you. A generation to a chocolate doe would, but I'm not going to screw around with that just to get a definite answer to that question.

 

[Sabine]

I've started "cracking" the genetic code on some of mine. Unfortunately I didn't get a full pedigree with them and only know the colours of the parents. But by pbserving the pffspring and subsequent litters I should get most details.
That's probably why I am slow to bring in another animal for a while as it could mess up things and keep me guessing.