What do you think of the stimulus package?

[TinysMom]

For the last week or so - I've been following what has been going on with the stimulus package - sometimes sitting here and listening to the debate for an hour or more at a time. I have very mixed feelings about the stimulus package.

First of all - I can understand that if we put money into our economy it should help it grow. I get that.

But the more I listen to the descriptions of various programs in the package - and when we will be spending that money ... the more I dislike the stimulus package.

I just listened to a show last week where they talked about how they're finding 78 BILLION dollars that was wasted from the last economic package they put together (I'd have to pull up the link - it was on Greta Van Sustern's "On The Record" show where there was a professor explaining how they tracked all this money that was wasted in the first payout).

So when I think - we hastily put together the other program and wasted (and it has been documented) - 78 BILLION dollars...already....I'm concerned about potential waste (and pork) in the stimulus package.

One amendment that I did like came from Sen. McCain - that if we had two consecutive quarters where our GDP (I hope I have the right initials) went up by 2% or more - then we'd halt the spending in this bill. In other words - we'd go "It worked!" and we would stop spending more money. Now I liked that -I thought it might make sense. I think if this bill were to pass with that ammendment (which was shot down) - I would be more in favor of the stimulus package.

I'd really like to hear what folks think about this - and not so much from a political perspective (aka "I'm a democrat so I back it" or "I'm a republican and I hate it")....but instead more from a standpoint of sharing ... what have you read about it? Do you have concerns? What do you feel should be in a stimulus package?

In other words - I guess I'm hoping for an educated discussion on the merits of the package as it currently is being talked about and as you've read about it.

I haven't yet gone to senate.gov and downloaded it - I understand it is several hundred pages long....but I am thinking I want to do more research on it.

Once again - I am all for stimulating our economy...I really am.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Peg, as you may know, Obama was in Elkhart Indiana today. I didn't get to hear him because my mom called and of course I had to talk to her! Elkhart has been one of the worst areas hit (actually it has the worst jump in unemployment) because of some of the industries there - and that's why Obama went there.

I know some of the spending they plan, but I haven't found details of things like - are we going to get new stimulus checks? I did hear that on the companies that get the money, he has put a cap on salaries being no more than $500,000 per year for CEO's. NO luxury trips and such. I LOVE THAT!

I need to read up more about it. I don't think we're going to make a difference really tho..... I honestly don't. If the parties want it, they'll vote it in..... if they don't they won't.

 

[seniorcats]

Here's the whole stimulus if any one wants to read it and/or the summaries.

http://readthestimulus.org/

 

[Bo B Bunny]

My brain can't understand that right now LOL!

 

[naturestee]

Thanks for the site, Seniorcats! I haven't been reading anything on the stimulus both because the thought of it will probably make me naseous (and I'm a bleeding heart liberal!) and because I can't trust most news sources to be unbiased. But the Congressional Budget Office is nonpartisan and doesn't argue for or against anything that I know of, it just reports numbers.

Speaking of which, I'm looking through the CBO graph posted on the site:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/02/01/GR2009020100154.html

There's pork in everything, no matter what. We'll see what I think once I get a bit of time to look this over.

Edit: wish I remember where it came from, but I remember seeing a graphic last fall that showed which sorts of economic stimulus had the most effect. I remember that food stamp programs made a huge difference (as it's money people have to go right out and spend), and tax credits and stimulus checks were down towards the bottom of effectiveness. Made sense to me.

 

[TinysMom]

Here's a link to an interesting graphic...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2009/02/01/GR2009020100154.html

 

[TinysMom]

Another good link - but you have to be able to read pdf files...

http://appropriations.senate.gov/Ne...estment_Act.pdf?CFID=4043629&CFTOKEN=40573040

 

[Bo B Bunny]

My father said there was going to be another check coming to the people who got them last time. Is that true?

 

[naturestee]

I don't know if there will be stimulus checks as all I've read so far are the two things Tinysmom has posted. The general idea and the direction this stimulus is going is, IMO, better than the last one. I hated giving money to banks and failed financial institutions. This seems a lot more focused on improving infrastructure as a way to provide jobs while getting some necessary work done.

The devil is in the details though, and I'm sure there's lots of hidden little things that I'd scream about if I knew. That's how all bills in this country are though. You can't push anything through Congress without someone tacking a bunch of pork funding on it.

 

[seniorcats]

This Detroit news article expresses how I feel.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090204/OPINION01/902040324

 

[Bo B Bunny]

naturestee wrote:

I don't know if there will be stimulus checks as all I've read so far are the two things Tinysmom has posted. The general idea and the direction this stimulus is going is, IMO, better than the last one. I hated giving money to banks and failed financial institutions. This seems a lot more focused on improving infrastructure as a way to provide jobs while getting some necessary work done.

The devil is in the details though, and I'm sure there's lots of hidden little things that I'd scream about if I knew. That's how all bills in this country are though. You can't push anything through Congress without someone tacking a bunch of pork funding on it.

DId you watch him today or this evening? he said a lot of the same things tonight that he said in Elkhart (and if you don't know how it's affecting people - check out Wabbitdad12's post in the hare down section - his company is in Elkhart).....

I think Obama is being honest about a lot of it..... he says it's not going to fix it all but it's going to help it for now. It needs help right now...... I do believe that.

 

[seniorcats]

These comments were sent to me by a friend in a discussion of the bill. Thought I would share Having read Daschel's book, the quotes are correct.

"What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.

The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses” and “forgo experimental treatments,” and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.
*Elderly Hardest Hit*
Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt."
Medical System Takeover(with bill page numbers):
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/02/09/theres-socialized-medicine-burried-in-obamas-trillion-dollar-debt-plan/
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs

 

[BethM]

I have a lot of mixed feelings about the stimulus thing......

I do think that the more cuts that are made to get votes make the whole thing that much more worthless to actually helping people. Tax cuts are worthless, in my opinion, especially when they're aimed at people who already have lots of money. They're just going to put that money in the bank, which is not helping those of us who can barely make it, much less save anything. And businesses who are getting by with x employees aren't suddenly going to hire more people when they get a tax break, especially if demand for their product or service isn't going up. It's silly to think that they will. Again, they will put it in the bank or increase salaries of the higher-ups.

I hope they don't pull that Reagan bull, where they let you keep more of your take-home pay (with less taxes being taken out of your check) but at the end of the year you still owe the same amount of taxes as before. But you *think* you are paying less taxes because you're not smart enough to follow the game.

I didn't really agree with the bank bailout. More money to the rich. Bah!@ I hope the new restrictions applied to banks who accept federal money are actually enforced. Anyone who can't get by on half a million needs a reality check. (And they're working for a bank that FAILED. If I failed at my job, I would get fired, not a giant bonus.) But I think a lot of the failings of the bank bailout were lack of oversight, and I think that had to do with the administration at that time.

I know lots of things in the original stimulus bill seem inconsequential, or pork-like, especially to people who wouldn't be directly impacted. But I do believe putting people to work is the way to go. I really liked the house weatherization thing, it's probably been cut by now. Someone has to do all that work, it doesn't just magically happen, then energy bills go down for the people in the houses that got weatherized, and we, as a country, use less oil/gas/coal. Threefold benefit.
And the computerized medical records.......that SO needs to be done.

I don't like supporting people who don't pull their own weight in society (assuming they are capable), but it has been shown that every dollar spent on the food stamps program generates $1.65 (I think) in the economy. I think I heard that tax breaks for big business generate 80 cents for every dollar spent. Yeah, negative growth. Handing out checks to everyone only generates an average of $1.05 for every dollar given out.

I am really upset that education spending is being cut out, just to get a vote or two from the Rep's. I don't understand how not increasing education spending would help? Sure, it won't help tomorrow......but I know there are lots of schools that need Help. (I will say something here....I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't particularly like being around kids. But I believe education is one place where this country needs to be spending all the money it can. Because, to use a cliche, children are our future. Better education leads to lower crime rates, all sorts of good things that benefit everyone. I vote for all the tax increases that impact education, even though I don't have kids to educate.)

I heard a senator who said the *best* way to stimulate the economy would be to give everyone a $5000 voucher towards the purchase of a new Chrysler or Ford vehicle. What killed me was that he was SERIOUS. Personally, I couldn't afford to buy a new car, even if I did get a coupon for $5k off. I'd still be $20k in the hole, with long-term debt that I would worry about paying off. On top of that, I do not want to buy Chrysler or Ford. I used to have a Ford, and it was the biggest pile of you-know-what. If I were able to buy a new car, it would be a Toyota. (Lots of Toyotas are made right here in the USA, so that's still keeping people at work.) I wonder how that senator thinks people who have been unemployed for 6 or 9 months can afford to go spend $20k on a new car? Or even get approved for that loan? And what would happen if everyone did go get their new car, then no one needed another new car for 5 or 10 years? What will happen to Ford and Chrysler then?
Same senator said re-doing the National Mall didn't create jobs, not even one. I guess that money just gets transferred to the Parks Service, and the Mall gets magically fixed overnight? They don't need people to do the actual work, I guess. (That wasn't my favorite part of the stimulus, but there were some jobs there, and it does need to be done. The foundations of the monuments are crumbling into the Potomic, that's all.....)

Whew! Ok, end of rant!

 

[slavetoabunny]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

My father said there was going to be another check coming to the people who got them last time. Is that true?

I didn't get a check last time - probably won't this time either if they're giving them out. Pooey!

 

[BethM]

slavetoabunny wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

My father said there was going to be another check coming to the people who got them last time. Is that true?

I didn't get a check last time - probably won't this time either if they're giving them out. Pooey!

Last check, I spent on bills. If I get another check, I will put it in the bank. I'm not going to complain about getting handed money, but it's not the way to get the economy rolling again. If the last check (up to $600) didn't help, giving out another check (up to $500) isn't going to help.

Especially when a lot ofpeople who might really need (and spend) the money won't be getting a check.

[line]


EDIT: Well, the bill passed the Senate. It looks like the part that would apply to the checks has been reduced a bit, so fewer people would get it. (Household income capped at 130k?) But, the bill as it is now appears that people will NOT get one check, like the last one. Instead, the rebate will be given as a reduction in your regular tax withholding. The max is $500, so people will most likely see this as about $20 more per check (assuming you get paid every other week) in your take-home pay.

Studies have shown that if you give someone a large check, it is likely they will save at least part of that amount. (Which is what I would have done.) If you give it out in small regular increments, it changes your perception of how much money you make, and you will change your spending habits. So, you are more likely to spend all of the "extra" income, and possibly more.

If this annoys you, I'd suggest either changing your W4, to have an additional amount withheld, and get that back with next year's tax refund, or putting that extra directly into a savings account. Most workplaces can direct deposit into more than one account, so you could have it go into savings without ever even seeing it, thus reducing the opportunity to spend it. (Which may be what I do.)

Of course, the Senate bill still has to be reconciled with the House bill, before it can be signed and enacted, so all of this could change.

I haven't read the whole bill, but I heard something about tax credits for new car purchases. Hopefully, this will apply to *any* new car, in which case I may consider trading in my Kia Spectra, which gets an unacceptable 25mpg, for a more efficient Toyota or Honda.

 

[TinysMom]

Some of the tax breaks in the bill include:
Obama's signature "Making Work Pay" tax credit for 95 percent of workers, though negotiators agreed to trim the credit to $400 a year instead of $500 -- or $800 for married couples, cut from Obama's original proposal of $1,000. It would begin showing up in most workers' paychecks in June as an extra $13 a week in take-home pay, falling to about $8 a week next January.


from

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/fir...amas-stimulus-package-reveals-winners-losers/

 

[PepnFluff]

I'm not really sure about any of the stimulus package, but 78 billion seems very small amount for the economy, my uncle can trade 50 billion a day in the stock market so 78 billion seems a tad small. Is it 780 billion?

ETA just checked, 800 billion apparently?

 

[naturestee]

Stimulus: how it may affect your wallet:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/02/12/news/economy/stimulus_individuals/index.htm?cnn=yes

I REALLY like what they are doing with the Cobra plan. Health issues are a real danger for anyone in this economy, worse for all those who've been layed off.

 

[Elf Mommy]

BethM wrote:

I am really upset that education spending is being cut out, just to get a vote or two from the Rep's. I don't understand how not increasing education spending would help? Sure, it won't help tomorrow......but I know there are lots of schools that need Help. (I will say something here....I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't particularly like being around kids. But I believe education is one place where this country needs to be spending all the money it can. Because, to use a cliche, children are our future. Better education leads to lower crime rates, all sorts of good things that benefit everyone. I vote for all the tax increases that impact education, even though I don't have kids to educate.)

With our current budget, here's just a glimpse of some of what is going to happen in our school district next year:

• Elementary schools will no longer have art, music or gym
• We will only have a media specialist one day a week
• Guidance (the ones who run all of our testing) will only be 2 days a week
• higher class sizes
• less custodians (1 instead of 3)
• no more sports/clubs/newspaper/yearbook, drama, band (football being cut last, of course)
• no security at high school football games
• no more instructional/reading coaches
• no raises or step increases for the next 3 years
• a reduction in health benefits (I'll be taking almost $1,000 in cut right there, personally)
• food services will be restructured
• busing will be restructured
• supplies will be cut (to give you some idea...we are OUT of paper towels in our school now. Kids have to "shake it dry"...usually on each other)

There are lots of other cuts...those are just on the top of my mind. Because they are cutting the jobs of the resource teachers (music, art, gym) and the instructional coaches...those people with seniority will need somewhere to go. They estimate 35-39% of the first year teachers will be "not rehired" to make room for those people into classrooms....IF they have the certification to get in as a classroom teacher.

My husband's job may be one of the ones to go. I know my job is safe, but we can't live where we do on only my income. We'll have to move if he loses his job.

Education could use some help. We really could.

ETA: Our school district has about 120 elementary school, 23 middle and 20 high schools. We have 124,000 students and about 9,500 teachers.

 

[naturestee]

That's just so wrong.