Unacceptable losses, think I finally found the cause *graphic*

[Icarus]

Losses thus far:
11 - kits (2wks, then later at 5wks), Agouti/Blue Broken, Agouti, REW
1 - 8wk Pearl Blue VM Doe
4 - 5wk kits, Self Black, Self Blue, Gold Tipped Black
1 - 4wk VM Orange Buck
1 - 4wk Dwarf Blue Broken Doe
1 - 8wk VM Harlequin Buck (today)


-All completely unrelated. Some came from clear across the state.
-All fed the same, kept in the same (clean) environment
-All show exactly the same symptoms in varying severity

Symptoms-
Unsure how it begins exactly. Bunny is found laying on side, body is completely limp but does respond (able to move, not paralyzed).
Respiration is high but heart rate is in relatively normal range.
Pupil dilation is extremely slow. Eyes are open, bunny is able to blink.
Seizures that stiffen the entire rabbit occur every few minuets and last 5-30 seconds. Body stiffens, back legs stretch out, front legs may or may not paddle. Head arches backwards. Eyes may roll depending on severity. Bunny may or may not urinate uncontrollably.

Once symptoms begin, mortality is 100% with no possibility of recovery.
The younger the rabbit, the quicker the onset of symptoms. Some may be less susceptible and live longer.

Cause:
Country Lane 16% Rabbit Pellets


I've gone over everything-where they've been, bedding, housing, water, etc. The only consistency is the pellets.

First litter I ever had was raised on Purina rabbit grain. 100% NO LOSSES. After that, I switched to Country Lane feed (first litter and momma since sold). I had the litter of 12 and lost every single one. Momma was extremely diligent, friendly, healthy, and produced more than enough milk to feed the lil' tykes.

Since then I've had young rabbits randomly dropping. I visit the hutch now in dread. Will another bunny be laying in the nest box, long since cold? My prized broken Vienna Doe? Or maybe my Satin Black today?


Everyone is going outside tomorrow so they can be 100% all natural until I can get Purina again, everyones closed for 4th of July.

Ugh. I feel like a completely ********* right now. It took nineteen bunnies lives far before their time for me to finally figure it out. Doi.
There was a similar issue with rabbit feed from another feed shop here in town, several breeders said that they had massive losses after feeding it. They didn't say exactly what brand it was though. I know that Midwest is really good with their feed, and theres another place but it's outside of town.
-headdesk-

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

Probably has high amount of corn in it. Watch the purina too. The green bag also has corn. people are having problems with it. Go with the show, or the fiber 3.

 

[lelanatty]

I have had babies have those seizure symptoms before. It was a couple of years ago though and I can't recall if those babies died or not. I will look into my records. I have only ever had one baby die after it was already running out of the nestbox and I believe it died at 3 weeks old. It probably was that one with those symptoms.

 

[pamnock]

Don't rule out viral or bacterial infections that can cycle through herds killing large numbers of kits. You also have a possibility of exposure from animals being brought in from different areas.

Because the rabbits are not showing signs of enterotoxemia from carbohydrates, I would not suspect corn in the feed.

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

Are you using the same hay? A friend of mine was having similar issues and it was milkweed in the hay.

Roger

 

[Icarus]

pamnock wrote:

Don't rule out viral or bacterial infections that can cycle through herds killing large numbers of kits. You also have a possibility of exposure from animals being brought in from different areas.

Because the rabbits are not showing signs of enterotoxemia from carbohydrates, I would not suspect corn in the feed.

Thats what I originally thought. I quarantined, scrubbed with an extremely lethal-to-bacteria cleaner, scrubbed hands after handling, was careful with clothing, etc. The two from the original litter from which I lost where completely fine until I had brought them inside (thunderstorms) and gave them the grain. Two days later, no bunnies.


RAL Rabbitry wrote:

Are you using the same hay? A friend of mine was having similar issues and it was milkweed in the hay.

Roger

Nope, I've stopped using hay completely and fed only fresh grasses. Gotten it from completely different sources. Gotten bagged hay. No changes

 

[RAL Rabbitry]

Are you having the feed tested? Don't let the feed company test it. Have it tested yourself.

I lost some rabbits when I first got started from a feed issue and the company that made the feed tested it and said it was fine and a couple different breeders and myself had it indepently tested and it was not fine.

 

[mistyjr]

You know that any kind of mold in the food can get them really sick. We had this problem with rabbits and dogs. The vet tested the food and it was the food. Some how the bag would get wet and the animals would get really sick. Some died.

 

[Nela]

I lost multiple rabbits with the same symptoms some years ago. They were all perfectly healthy til then. It was Martins feed. I've never trusted the feed again. Of course, I have no proof it was the feed. I have always suspected it to be the food but I don't know for sure. It's sad to witness

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

pamnock wrote:

Don't rule out viral or bacterial infections that can cycle through herds killing large numbers of kits. You also have a possibility of exposure from animals being brought in from different areas.

Because the rabbits are not showing signs of enterotoxemia from carbohydrates, I would not suspect corn in the feed.

I had rtabbits get really skinny, lethargic, and some got weak when I was going through the food toxin last year. Entertoxemia isn't the only thing that shows up with food toxins.

 

[pamnock]

Icarus wrote:

Thats what I originally thought. I quarantined, scrubbed with an extremely lethal-to-bacteria cleaner, scrubbed hands after handling, was careful with clothing, etc. The two from the original litter from which I lost where completely fine until I had brought them inside (thunderstorms) and gave them the grain. Two days later, no bunnies.

This wouldn't have necessarily had any effect on a virus going through the rabbitry.

 

[pamnock]

mistyjr wrote:

You know that any kind of mold in the food can get them really sick. We had this problem with rabbits and dogs. The vet tested the food and it was the food. Some how the bag would get wet and the animals would get really sick. Some died.

It's actually very few molds that cause a problem. We continually ingest and breath in mold spores present in the air and on foods. Spoiled, old food can certainly be a source of contamination, but there have been very few proven cases of toxins in rabbit feeds being the cause of deaths.



There was a similar incident reported in our area that was talked about on rabbit forums. A breeder said that "all" the big breeders in our area were suffering heavy stock losses from contaminated Buckeye rabbit feed. Unfortunately, this was just speculation on that breeders part. Buckeye called me (at the time we had over a herd of 100 rabbits and had suffered NO losses in our herd while feeding our rabbits from the same shipment of feed that other breeders were feeding). Come to find out that the breeder had exaggerated - only 2 breeders in the area lost some rabbits, and it was never proven to be related to the feed.



Feed is often the scapegoat, but rarely the cause.

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

pamnock wrote:

mistyjr wrote:

You know that any kind of mold in the food can get them really sick. We had this problem with rabbits and dogs. The vet tested the food and it was the food. Some how the bag would get wet and the animals would get really sick. Some died.

It's actually very few molds that cause a problem. We continually ingest and breath in mold spores present in the air and on foods. Spoiled, old food can certainly be a source of contamination, but there have been very few proven cases of toxins in rabbit feeds being the cause of deaths.



There was a similar incident reported in our area that was talked about on rabbit forums. A breeder said that "all" the big breeders in our area were suffering heavy stock losses from contaminated Buckeye rabbit feed. Unfortunately, this was just speculation on that breeders part. Buckeye called me (at the time we had over a herd of 100 rabbits and had suffered NO losses in our herd while feeding our rabbits from the same shipment of feed that other breeders were feeding). Come to find out that the breeder had exaggerated - only 2 breeders in the area lost some rabbits, and it was never proven to be related to the feed.



Feed is often the scapegoat, but rarely the cause.

There has been an issue going on with corn in the feed for a couple of years. last year someone out in main lost a lot of rabbits to the same symptoms the op and I saw last year. Skinny lethargic rabbits, bloated rabbits, some showing weakness and dying. Had the rabbits and the feed tested. I don't know what the results were for the rabbits. I do know he found black corn mold in the feed. There was quite a bit of it. last I heard he was planning on taking the company to court over it. This involved blue seal feeds.

With mine, they stopped dying whern I switched to a corn free formula. I even fed them straight alfalfa from two weeks and never lost a singl eone. All suffering from the toxin recovered. i didn't start seeing problems or deaths again until I started to slowly reintoduce the feed. that was less then a tablespoon at a time. there shouldn't have been any problems from feeding a small amount like that.

i had mine tested by michigan state university. They tested for diseases and didn't find any. the only thing they found was traces fo occidia and e coli. It was the type that doesn't spread from one animal to the next. Even went as far as testing for tyzzers diease, and vhd. terramycin took care of the e coli. Tried pen pals at at that time( I was feeding manna pro) and still had problems. its when I switched to the purina rabbit chow, green bag, they stopped. I didn't have any more sick rabbits until I opened a bag that had corn in the bottom of it. This was the last bag I got before they got in a shipment of the "new" formula that had corn in it. I refuse to feed corn based feeds now unless I have some acid pak to give along with it. If you go to the meat rabbits list there are a couple of there having some issues with it. But nobody is having problems with fiber 3 and the show formula. I wasn't aware of the issues with rabbit chow until pip said something about it in another thread. Then after that the problems on the list started showing up.

Everyone that lost rabbits to this last year is cautioning against using corn based rabbit pellets.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:

But nobody is having problems with fiber 3 and the show formula.

A significant number of show breeders actually experienced herd losses with the Fibre3 formula. When it came out, several breeders raved over it and a lot of breeders took a chance and made the switch. For awhile, the rabbits seemed to do really, really well, and then people started loosing numbers of rabbits.

I am on another forum where a good portion of the breeders tried Fibre3 and now wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole.

My point is not to steer people away from Purina at all, I use Purina too (show formula). Rather, my point is that when one breeder has trouble with a feed, not necessarily every breeder will have the same trouble. Different herds do better on different feeds, and a lot depends on the breeders proximity to the feed mill, availability of fresh feed, area the food is milled in, climate the feed is stored in, etc.

It is important to find a feed that works for your herd, but not to discriminate against other foods for any reason. Around here, Manna Pro is a VERY popular food, a ton of people feed it and their rabbits do well on it. And yet, I know another breeder who lost an entire herd on it last year. You just never know what the circumstances are. Feed can certainly be the cause of problems, but until it is tested, I wouldnt place blame on a particular brand.

 

[pamnock]

I've used corn based feeds for years . . .

Wheat actually is a "hotter" feed than corn and is alsocontained in many feeds.

 

[dixonsrabbitry1]

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:

But nobody is having problems with fiber 3 and the show formula.

A significant number of show breeders actually experienced herd losses with the Fibre3 formula. When it came out, several breeders raved over it and a lot of breeders took a chance and made the switch. For awhile, the rabbits seemed to do really, really well, and then people started loosing numbers of rabbits.

I am on another forum where a good portion of the breeders tried Fibre3 and now wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole.

My point is not to steer people away from Purina at all, I use Purina too (show formula). Rather, my point is that when one breeder has trouble with a feed, not necessarily every breeder will have the same trouble. Different herds do better on different feeds, and a lot depends on the breeders proximity to the feed mill, availability of fresh feed, area the food is milled in, climate the feed is stored in, etc.

It is important to find a feed that works for your herd, but not to discriminate against other foods for any reason. Around here, Manna Pro is a VERY popular food, a ton of people feed it and their rabbits do well on it. And yet, I know another breeder who lost an entire herd on it last year. You just never know what the circumstances are. Feed can certainly be the cause of problems, but until it is tested, I wouldnt place blame on a particular brand.

I tried it too when it first came, and didn't lie it. Now they have changed the formula its better. basically what it is is the old show formula minus the corn. and the show formula is similar to the old complete blend. I don't steer people away from purina at all. Just try to steer them towards something that won't make their animals sick.

Several of us did have our feed tested last year. the guy in mian I mentioned. Some others including myself. Nothing grew in mine. however, They did find more corn mold toxins in a brand in indiana. Never did find out what one that was. I believe there was something it, otherwise we wouldn't have lost the amount of rabbits we did last year. When they do well on hay and grains, then start getting sick on the pellets again, then its the feed doing it.