Teeth loss/fallen off?

[the fluffies]

If i just go for the monthly teeth clipping and injectable Becillin without having the removal surgery, the problem will not solve?

There is no other antibiotic works as good as injectable Becillin? My bf is not agree about the idea of poking the bunny with the needle every other day after, what had happened to our friend, Somebunny's ND, Hans, and we think that injection is painful and will stress the bunny.

 

[tonyshuman]

I don't know; it depends on what's going on with the tooth roots, which you can't figure out without an x-ray. I do remember Hans, and I thought that the issue was that he was not able to get Bicillin proper but some other antibiotic combination.

 

[the fluffies]

Actually we'll be sending Alfie to Hans' vet since she is the only vet experienced in rabbit teeth extraction. So we probably will use the same drug - Benacillin.

But i also read in Somebunny's thread that Hans' abscess was not getting better after more than a week treatment with Benacillin. Is there any stronger drug than this? Chloramphenical? I read that it is hard to administer, but is it had the same side effect with Benacillin/Bicillin if we accidently poke the needle to far and touch the rabbit flesh/muscle?

 

[tonyshuman]

With antibiotics, it's less about the strength of the drug and more about which drugs the bacteria are resistant to. I would think that after a week of Benacillin administration without improvement, the abscess may have had bacteria in it that were not sensitive to Benacillin. Switching to a different antibiotic may have been a good choice.

Chloramphenicol is administered orally, and the concern is that it can cause damage to the bone marrow. For an individual that has a very strong infection that is sensitive to chloramphenicol, the risk of bone marrow toxicity is weighed against the possible curing of the infection with the drug, and often it is more important to treat the infection. Most of the bone marrow suppression is reversible, although in some cases it can cause aplastic anemia, which is not reversible. I think that the bone marrow suppression and aplastic anemia are less common and less severe in animals as opposed to humans. The majority of the risk for chloramphenicol use is not to the rabbit, but to the human administering it to the rabbit. It is used sometimes in humans, despite the risks, but it is something you want to handle only with gloves on to minimize risk to yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloramphenicol

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

I still have a lot of concerns about the safety of Benacillin. It contains procaine hydrochloride in addition to the two normal ingredients of Bicillin (penicillin g procaine and penicillin g benzathine), and I'm not sure if the procaine in benacillin was part of what caused Hans to pass away. It worries me.

 

[the fluffies]

Other than Pam, is there any other RO member successfully treated their rabbit with Chloramphenicol?

I'm not sure if the vets here can find the Chloramphenicol, but if i'm not mistaken, before Hans had Benacillin injections, he was on Baytril, then Benacillin + Zithromax.

How about Zithromax? Has anyone succesfully treating abscess with Zithromax alone?

I remember your discussion with Maureen regarding Hans' passing

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=48440&forum_id=16&page=2

The Benacillin should be safe, issit?

I have a bottle of Benacillin in the fridge. I got it from Hans vet on July 2009. I didn't had a chance to use it on Dino due to my health problem and I was away travelling here and there. On oct 2009, the abscess burst out, dried, and just gone after a few days. I was planned to use it when the abscess starts coming back. But now it is more than a year. No sign od abscess, and i'm not sure if the drug can be keep anymore.

How should i dispose the drug?

 

[the fluffies]

Normally, if the rabbit has a tooth fallen out due to cage biting, etc, and caused trauma to the incisors/roots, will it effected the cheek teeth/molar too??

 

[tonyshuman]

I know Angieluv has used chloramphenicol before. I don't know about whether the benacillin is ok, I would guess that it is not. It should have an expiration date on it. In regards to the other question, often if there are problems with the incisors, there can be problems with the molars, but they aren't always together.

 

[Maureen Las]

I never used chlorampenical orally in a rabbit but I used it an eye salve for Beau who had an infected eye ulcer that would not respond to any other antibiotic

I pulled upSomebunny's thread dealing with Han's abscess.
The problem is that we do not know if benacillin casued Han's death or if Streisand possibly hit a vein . ..or if something else happened . Streisand went as far as talking to the woman who wrote the first article on bicillin ( Marcy Moore)


http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=48224&forum_id=16&highlight=Hans




I know that Pipp has used bicillin subqutaneously with oral chlorampenical . I think that oral chlorampenical is an excellent rabbit antibiotic but many vets don't want to prescribe it because it can be dangerous to humans if they come in contact with it; it can cause white blood cell destruction in humans.
When I used the eye salve I wore plastic gloves; I would not hesitate to use this drug butI would be careful not to get it on my skin.

I personally would be afraid to use benacillin again and this is not based on anything really substanial other than I was also disturbed that Hans died.

if you are seeing Streisand's vet you could find out if the vet has used benacillin on other rabbits succesfully. I would also ask the vet if there is any way that he could get the human version of bicillin . Maybe that is available in Malaysia

Randy has used Zithromax ( Azithromycin ) ver successfully , however, for absesses he has used it in combination with bicillin.

You need to compile a list of drugs when you see Han's vet to ask him about

choramphenical
azithromycin (Zithromax)
bicillin ( a combo of procaine penicillin G and benzathine G penicllins)
Convenia


I may also attempt to post questions on etherbun re benacillin.

 

[the fluffies]

Can i just wrap the full bottle with the newspaper and throw in my dustbin? Or should i remove the contains first?

Alfie has slightly reduce his food intake. He looks interesting towards food. Everytime i bring some food to him (pellet, alfalfa, fruits, veggies) he will jumps in excited, but he will only takes a few bites, then leave...
I hope it is nothing to do with the molar. Sadly we have no x-ray service or vets with otoscope equipment in Penang

I checked on his lump this morning. He hasn't start any antibiotic course yet, but the lump is slightly reduce its size.

I'm calling around to find a vet who can file down the incisors and check on his molar (for temporary before we can figure out if it is needed to extract his teeth or not) near our place. At the same time, i'll watch his lump if there's changes in its size ray:

 

[the fluffies]

Hi Maureen,

The vet who helped Streisand got her Benacillin had never used this drug before. And she said there is no way to get Bicillin (and choramphenical?) in Malaysia. Hans was the first patient who tried the Benacillin.

The vet prefers to stick with Baytril (oral/injectable). She prescribed Zithromax to Hans, but it caused stomach upset to Hans. I wonder if the Zithromax is strong enough to works alone.

I'll ring her to ask her opinion about Zithromax and Convenia.

 

[Maureen Las]

I was going to ask about benacillin on Etherbun when I decided to look up procaine hydrochloride ; this is the extra drug compnent in the benacillin.

http://www.orgyn.com/resources/genrx/D002118.asp

It can cause cardiac arrest at certain blood levels ; I wouldn't use it

 

[the fluffies]

Owh!! :shock:

 

[the fluffies]

Ok, now we cannot get Bicillin in Malaysia, the Benacillin in not yet proven.

Another vet is trying to help me get the choramphenical.

How about Zithromax and Convenia?

 

[Maureen Las]

I don't know if they can be given together ( zithromax and chloramphenical) ?? but chloramphenical crosses the blood brain barrier and is a good drug

Convenia is used off label for rabbits and I believe is given in a weekly injection . I don't know how to dose it but I am fairly sure there are other members who could help.

 

[the fluffies]

We're going to send Alfie to KL next weekend. Streisand's vet is willing to do the teeth burring under GA to trim Alfie's upper incisors and see if Alfie manage to wear them down by himself. If the teeth become overgrown again after the trimming, we might consider to send him again for teeth extraction.

And for temporary, the vet will prescribe the injectable Baytril for his abscess. The abscess is getting smaller. When we reach the vet, i think the lump will be gone. DO we still need to put him on antibiotic?

I have other worries too. KL is a 5 hours journey from my place. Alfie has never been to any vet before. He never been in car before. It may cause some stress to him. If we straight away put him under GA and perform the teeth burring as soon as we reach the vet, is it ok? I'm thinking to drive back soon as he wake up from the anesthetic. The soon we get home, the better is it?

Is it ok if i gave him Benebac and Nutri-cal before we leave home, is case he is too stress to eat during the journey?

 

[Maureen Las]

I had to travel 3 hrs one way to get Beau's teeth done. We would get there at about 8:30Am and often ( due to the dentist's schedule and recovery from the anesthesia) we did not leave until at least mid afternoon for another 3 hrs back.

They gave him sub q fluids while he was there so he did not need hydration but I often brought a bottle of pedialyte ( electrolyte drink for children) and a small syringe and gave him some fluids per syringe when we would stop on the way home for gas etc.

Beau was too drugged to eat on the way home and most rabbits aren"t going to eat anyway under these circumstances.

You can pack a carrier with a layer of hay for him to sit on and also just throw some pellets in there just in case .

Beau would have his last meal about 5:30 Am and then eat again sometimes at 8 or 9pm that evening whenI was home and put food down.

If he is kept relatively hydrated he will do fine without food for the day. compare it to a female rabbit who is spayed ... she often will not eat eat for several days after the spay. and is fine.

just have greens and ( do you have critical care?) ready for when he is home. he most likely will not eat until he is in familar surroundings.

believe me I had a lot of those long trips with Beau and he did just fine.

If the bump is getting smaller I doubt very much that it is an abscess.
Injectable baytril is better than nothing;
My vet will sell me a whole bottle because I have so many rabbits (I really have used it primarily on my rats) ; you can get insulin syringes from pharmacies to give injections.
It is way better to give the injection intramuscularly because giving it sub q can destroy tissue.

If the bump is getting smaller I am saying just get meds to take home with you anyway . it also would be good if you could also get some azithromycin tablets

this vet may understand the difficulty of making this trip and give you meds that you can use after you have talked to him on the phone.

 

[the fluffies]

angieluv wrote:

.. I often brought a bottle of pedialyte ( electrolyte drink for children) and a small syringe and gave him some fluids per syringe when we would stop on the way home for gas etc.

.... You can pack a carrier with a layer of hay for him to sit on and also just throw some pellets in there just in case .

.... If he is kept relatively hydrated he will do fine without food for the day. compare it to a female rabbit who is spayed ... she often will not eat eat for several days after the spay. and is fine.

just have greens and ( do you have critical care?) ready for when he is home. he most likely will not eat until he is in familar surroundings.

believe me I had a lot of those long trips with Beau and he did just fine.

If the bump is getting smaller I doubt very much that it is an abscess.
Injectable baytril is better than nothing;
My vet will sell me a whole bottle because I have so many rabbits (I really have used it primarily on my rats) ; you can get insulin syringes from pharmacies to give injections.
It is way better to give the injection intramuscularly because giving it sub q can destroy tissue.

If the bump is getting smaller I am saying just get meds to take home with you anyway . it also would be good if you could also get some azithromycin tablets

this vet may understand the difficulty of making this trip and give you meds that you can use after you have talked to him on the phone.

Thanks for the tips! Yes i have Critical Care.

The journey is 5 hours one way. We will leave as early as 5.30am. Since my bf is not familiar with the place, we might take a few hours to find the place. Probably will reach there during mid-noon. We will wait until he is recover from the anesthetic, before drive back to Penang. We might reach home on the mid-nite. I will make sure he drinks during the journey.

We dont have Pedialyte in Malaysia. But Streisand posted in one of her thread that she managed to find other brand:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=34566&forum_id=16

Oralite Natural (7.22gm pack):

Glucose: 9.4gm
Sodium Chloride: 0.48gm
Sodium Bicarbonate: 0.42gm
Potassium Chloride: 0.38gm

It should be ok if given to bunnies, rite?

 

[the fluffies]

Or this one??? Which one is meet the Pedialyte ingredients?

UPHALYTE SALTS (7.6gm)

Sodium Chloride BP 525 mg
Sodium Bicarbonate 425 mg
Potassium Chloride 375 mg
Glucose Anhydrous 6.25 mg

It should has more glucose in the ingredient, isnt it?

 

[tonyshuman]

I would actually use one with less glucose. An artificial sweetener is used in Pedialyte/Dioralyte rather than actual sugar. The real sugars promote the growth of bad bacteria.