(RIP) Pasteurella?? (molar spurs)

[MILU]

Hi Sas

Bun's been peeing ok, he's just did it and it's clear, light yellow color, good amount.

You're so right, you know my bun without having seen him! He's been losing weight.
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I have 2 different kinds of pellets:
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1 - "Funny Bunny"
Ingredients: dehydrated alfalfa, ground corn, rice, corn gluten, wheat bran, dehydrated carrot, rice hulls, salt, calcium, bicalcium phosphatem amino acid vitamin-mineral premix.

Moisture (max.) 12%
Crude Protein (min.) 17%
Crude Fat (min.) 3%
Fiber (max.) 18%
Ash (max.) 13%
Calcium (max.) 1,5%
Phosphorus (min.) 0.4%

(no more info about it)

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2 - "Purina Natural Line (Rabbits)"

Basic composition:
Ground soybean hulls, starch, carrot powder, molasses, salt, Yucca extract, choline chloride, lysine, calcitic calcarium, wheat bran (54,813%), sunflower bran, fungistatic antifungal additive, mineral vitamin premix.

Possible substitutes:

dicalcium phosphate, extruded whole soybean, baking soda, rice bran, Coast Cross hay, canola meal, kaolin, sugar, meat flour, corn gluten meal 21, alfalfa hay, corn gluten - 60 bran, re-ground wheat, soybean oil degummed, methionine, ground whole sorghum grain, ground rice hulls, refined soybean oil, wheat flour, corn germ, oat hulls, soybean meal, cassava (manioc) flour , broken rice.

Moisture (max.) 12%
Crude protein (min.) 14%
Crude fat (min.) 1,50%
Fiber (max.) 20%
Ash (max.) 15%
Calcium (max) 2%
Phosphorus (min.) 0,50%


- Enriched with (by Kilogram of the product):

Copper - 24 mg
Zinc - 120 mg
Manganese - 96 mg
Iodine - 2,40mg
Selenium - 0,22 mg
Cobalt - 1,20 mg
Vitamin A - 8.000,00 UI
Vitamin D3 - 1.650,00 UI
Vitamin E - 16,07 UI/Kg
Pantotenic acid - 2 mg
Vitamin B12 - 4 mcg
Propionic acid - 1.207,00mg
Yucca extract - 250 mg
Choline - 120 mg
Lysine - 6 g
Magnesium - 2 g
Sodium - 2,20 g

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Before the dental problem started, my bun used to eat mostly fresh leaves: catalonia leaves, carrot leaves, broccoli leaves, cabbage, kale, cauliflower leaves (about 80% of his diet). 2nd best eaten food: pellets.
3rd: a little bit of carrots, bananas, apple, alfalfa hay, and sometimes (rarely) guava leaves and twigs, mango leaves and twigs.

He started having this problem in January (2010). I traveled for 6 months in 2009, returning in December (2009). I don't know if that has to do with the problem. My family always told me he was being well fed. When I came back he was well fed too.

Yes, it's likely that his problem is gas! I won't give dipirona.
He stays in a position that is hard to touch his tummy.

His exercise has been running away from feeding. I don't stress him too much, so after 1 or 2 gulps, he wants to run away and I let him go, but soon I bring him back to my lap and feed him 1 or 2 gulps again. Then he runs a little, and so on..

** Yesterday someone told me she knew of another rabbit who'd see my bun's dentist and needed to go there every month to get his teeth filed. That made me, once again, think he may do the work leaving the teeth slightly uneven, causing malocclusion.. after the procedures, when my bunny would eat, I've always heard his teeth scratching each other, producing a horrible noise, not the usual chewing noise…

Thanks for all the advice and for being so nice and helpful! I trust everything you say, no matter what our vets say.

:thumbup

 

[Pipp]

Mix the two brands together, soak them very well (30 minutes or so) and give him that.

The teeth grinding noise unfortunately sounds like a severe pain response. I'd give him the Metacam ASAP if you haven't already.

Could it be that your family was feeding him mostly pellets while you were gone? That would account for the molar spurs in the first place. Its possible (I'm not saying likely, just possible) the dentist didn't do a proper filing them in the first place and that's why they're back. And/or he could have gotten an infection in the tooth root from the procedure that's stopped him from chewing and wearing them down.

I'd get the pain and gas relief taken care of ASAP, and only give him the pellet slurry from here on in.


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

I suspect my family didn't feed my bun with as many varieties as I do, but they say they fed him right and say the problem only appeared after I was back...

Either if my bun's dentist left the teeth slightly uneven, or if the roots are infected, I think extraction is the way now, because filing isn't working, the problem is back too soon.

I'll follow your advice about feeding, thanks a lot! Can I still give some apple juice? My bun likes it...

 

[tonyshuman]

I agree that extraction is probably the best bet. I wouldn't worry about him going under anesthesia, but it's just one of those things that people are really afraid of with rabbits--too much so, usually.

It sounds like you're doing a great job keeping food in him. The pain meds usually will help with constipation because when the belly is in pain they just shut down. Gas meds, massages, and keeping up the feeding should help. If he really struggles against the food, it could be really serious. It would be really hard to have to do this until Tuesday--I hope he starts to poo more so you don't have to worry.

Tooth issues are usually genetic but don't always show up until later in life. Maybe it takes that long for the teeth to grow in a way that will make them have noticeable problems, and once they've gotten that far, grinding them only takes them back in time a few months, not years, which is how long the underlying issues have been going on. That's my guess, anyway.

 

[ra7751]

It sounds to me as if there is an awful lot of ineffective things going on here. Certainly the spurs need to be addressed but if you can't get the gut under control, it won't matter. Taking into consideration your location, the best way to start stabilizing the gut is to make things as basic as possible as far as feeding....and using a targeted antibiotic. Drop the Baytril as it isn't doing much of anything other than causing GI issues. Metronidazole (Flagyl) is excellent at controlling Clostridium (which is the bacteria that most often caused diarrhea and GI upset). Dose 20mg/kg PO BID. This drug also offers anti-inflammatory properties. A one time injection of a vitamin, B Comp, dosed at 2mg/kg will help with the appetitie. Metacam is the preferred NSAID as it seems to be absorbed better than the others when used in a rabbit. Looking at those teeth, it might be helpful to be a little more aggressive with the pain meds....maybe either Tramadol or Buprenex. Either of those can be used in conjuction with Metacam.

Randy

 

[MILU]

Thanks, Claire - he did it! 2 big droppings (cecum?) with mucus. He got so happy that he even played a little and went to sleep. Before sleeping I made him eat again - 15 ml of pellet slurry and drink 10 ml of water.

Randy, thanks a lot for your help! How long should I give him Flagyl? I understand the others (Metacam, Tramadol) are for as long as he's in pain, right?

Do you think that the antibiotic you told me about before (for root abscess) could also stop the teeth from growing and getting spurs (for whatever reason they may be growing)? I never found any vet here who was willing to give the injections, as it's hard to get someone to extract my bun's teeth too.... the last vet I went to made my bun worse with Baytril + Rimadyl (promising he'd eat after taking them) then told us, still at the waiting room, to go back to my bun's dentist (i.e., a polite "don't come back here"). I guess as my bun got worse, he must be afraid my bun will die in his hands (but he won't die!).
I've been trying all I can with the vets, but some (many) times my efforts are in vain.... some time things will have to work, though. I really appreciate your help, you and everybody here are real heroes!

 

[Maureen Las]

Hi

The animal dentist that took care of my rabbit's Beau's extensive problems is a professor at the University of Wisconsin , Madison WI; he is extremely knowledgeable, however, my concern is that your dentist may not have the the necesary equipment,tools, anesthesia or drugs necessary to care for the mouth correctly.
here is the link to the University dental program. if you cllckon the links of the dentist there is an email for Dr William Gengler who is the most experienced
You could email him asking him if you could send him the dental xrays and also ask him if he would be willing to talk to the dentist in Brazil. be sure to let him know that you are in South America

Does your dentist speak english?

http://uwveterinarycare.wisc.edu/sa_services/surg/dentistry/default.htm

Click on the name William Gengler on the first page and a page will appear with his picture . There is an email under the pic.
I don't know if he can help but he is a very nice man.

Maureen

 

[MILU]

Thanks for the info, Maureen! Sas also gave me some useful info I can ask the dentist to do, hopefully he will.
I don't know the dentist speaks English, I'm more concerned about his willingness to do it. When we first went to (other) vets to treat my bun, Randy told us it was a dental issue (long before the vets knew it, they told me my bun was stressed!!!!) and Randy said he could talk to those vets and they refused to accept Randy's help. Of course I'm not seeing them anymore, but the others aren't too different. The last one was my friend's father, she told me he's "the best", father was a professor at the best university here, and on the 2nd visit told us to leave already from the waiting room, after he asked and I politely said his injections made my bun worse. My friend is sorry, but that is a great example of how our vets are really bad, no matter what. The dentist does a good job, hasn't killed any pet (which is exceptional), the only thing is that the problem is back too soon and as he spoke to my mother on the phone, it seems like he doesn't want to extract the teeth as I asked. I don't know if he's humble enough to accept help, but I can talk to him. He seems to be better than the others executing the work. If Dr. Gengler could tell me his opinion, and what teeth to extract it would also be great. If he and my dentist could be in touch, that would surely be fantastic! I appreciate!

 

[MILU]

Now I've seen something that scared me. He's releasing a lot of translucent mucus from his "behind", also watery stuff (not pee). He's been producing feces (not much, but a few). Now I've grabbed him and he was all wet and I saw all the stuff on the ground. The gel-like mucus was bigger than the size of a quarter, and the watery stuff wasn't "much" (not as much as pee), but made him and the carpet wet. I guess that's why I've seen "watery" stains around. I thought it was from drooling.
And I've seen mucus on feces before, but now it's only translucent mucus, so it seems more scary. I got an appointment with the dentist tomorrow. I hope he stays well until then and gets home ok.
ray: ullhair:


***** as I walk around, I find more and more of the gel-like mucus. I've just found stuff sized like 2 more quarters, and "tall" too (about 0.30 inches?)
There's a little of it also in his bathroom.
Bun doesn't look bad (I mean, not worse than before) but I don't know if all the mucus is a (too) bad sign?

:cry4:

 

[Pipp]

That's a typical sign of intestinal distress, which isn't surprising given his tummy upsets.

Just don't panic. It doesn't mean its worse. Keep giving him the mushed up pellets and the probiotic. He really needs to stick to just fiber and fluids. If you give him apple juice, water it down.

Also, the vets may not be as bad as you think, it doesn't sound like you're not giving them much of a chance, they may not be as willing to discuss treatments if they feel they're on the 'hot seat'. The dentist probably won't discuss extractions until he actually sees him.



sas :clover:

 

[ra7751]

I would get some Metronidazole going....and in medical terms....stat. Mucus in the fecal matter is an indicator of a bacterial imbalance in the GI. I don't know if this product is available there, but I have been using a product called BioSponge. Basically it is a "scrubber". It can bind and absorb the enterotoxins (most likely caused by a bacteria known as Clostridium) that is causing the mucus.

Randy

 

[MILU]

Biosponge sounds nice, but we don't have it (as well as critical care, etc.)
I got Flagyl. For how many days should I give it?

The "watery stuff" is actually as much as pee or more (but it's not pee). I've just seen more, with a little more mucus. He seems to "release" a lot of it.

**** Everytime I look around some place he stayed, I see more and more and more of the gel-like mucus and the "mysterious water". My bun's behind is wet, even if I wipe it, it gets wet again. I don't like this, it's too weird, my bun's never been like this before! :cry4: :bawl:

Sas - I'm always nice and polite when I talk to the vets here (maybe so much they think I'm a fool), always listen, and speak when they ask, but I don't return when they make big mistakes such as killing all animals I saw them treating and asked about and they told me they all died. In the last case, the vet asked me already at the waiting room how my bun was. Right after I said "he got worse", he refused to continue treating him. I think he was afraid my bun would die in his hands, as he treats mostly dogs, and mostly showering and grooming dogs - and this is one of the "big" vet names here too.
I'm not a vet at all, but I had in mind that metacam could be good and I asked the vet and he said it was not. I had told him before how zythromax saved my rabbit and he asked how come my rabbit didn't throw up or even died because zythromax should have killed him (he doesn't even seem to know that rabbits can't throw up?!!!). That's why I get mad. I won't give them a 2nd change. I simply don't return.
The dentist is ok, clean, always keeps the rabbit alive, I respect him as the best here, who doesn't kill animals and doesn't make mistakes, although the fact that the issues come back too soon and worse, and we're always charged more each time we're back could be questionable considering where I am, but I never said a thing to him, after all, maybe that's not his fault, and he does a good work. I'll talk to him in person about extractions and maybe he'll change his mind. If he doesn't, I can do nothing else than keep filing bun's teeth until he can't stand anymore, but it's not being cool.
We don't have savvy guys like on RO...
Thank God my rabbit was born on internet days, and thank God there are real wise and good people like you to help us, my rabbit and I appreciate!

 

[tonyshuman]

I would give the Flagyl at least until the mucus clears up. I am so thankful for my vets right now. I would have a huge fit at the vet's if they treated me like they do you. Please let us know how his GI is doing.

 

[MILU]

** When I wipe my bun's behind, below his tail, it's very hard (the area around where he poops, hard area must be as big as a baseball, the end of his belly)... I don't like this... bun can still jump and run from feeding, but I don't know if this is "good" activity. This hard "behind" is more than weird and he drops the jelly all over and keeps moving from one place to another because everywhere he goes gets wet.
I wouldn't even know where to take him, if the "good", "great" vet was the one who caused this and the others are just as bad!! The dentist isn't there today (we got the appointment tomorrow) but he only takes care of teeth and nothing else.
If my bun needs to "go", I'd rather have this happening in my hands though, where he's loved. I hope I'm just being paranoid and I really appreciate your help.

 

[MILU]

* Claire - I don't fight with the vets because there's no law here to check their activity. If I complain to them, they'll laugh at me. If I complain at the court, they'll claim they're "the best" and I'm nobody and know not what I say. This place is a hellhole and I'd leave it if only I could!

 

[Maureen Las]

You are truly in a horrible situation ; I really feel for you . You can only do what you can do and you are trying more than 100%
Icomplain about the vets near me but I have never been in a situation like yours
:hug:ray:
The flagyl seem to be the best route to take right now
"Hugs"
Maureen

 

[tonyshuman]

Oh, does he have a prolapsed rectum? That could happen from straining to pass the mucus. I'm trying to figure out what this baseball thing you mention is. I know that male rabbits in particular have a raised area around their urethral and anal openings, but it's not usually protruding that much.

Can you put him on microfleece or an artificial sheepskin? They can wick away moisture so that he won't have to move around so much. Poor guy, I hope someone else knows what this bum thing is that you're talking about...

 

[Pipp]

hotmaildeal wrote:

** When I wipe my bun's behind, below his tail, it's very hard (the area around where he poops, hard area must be as big as a baseball, the end of his belly)...

This could be a swollen cecum, also from the GI distress. Can you get photos?

One thing to keep in mind is that while the dental issues are causing the lack of eating and thus the imbalance and leading to all the GI tract problems, something also may well have made him stop eating enough for the molar spurs to take hold in the first place.

My vet hasn't been able to respond, there's just too much information for him to sort through, but he brought up a good point. If he didn't have molar spurs for five years and then he did, why the change? The diet has to be examined as does any other health issues that may have made him stop eating.

I think seeing as it coincided with you being away, maybe he was being fed slightly different things that didn't wear down his teeth as well, and/or he was depressed by your absence and ate less, or all this time he's had another health issue affecting his appetite.

I've been in touch with the Bio-Sponge company, f you PM me your shipping info, the they will give me a quote about a two-day shipping option.


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

Oh, I guess it must be a prolapsed rectum then.. It's a somewhat big area (sort of as big as a baseball, not that it looks like one, won't show in pics because of the legs and tail around it) felt harder when I wiped my bun, around the rectum area. I put him on his rags to keep him warm and to absorb the stuff but they get wet and he goes somewhere else. Whatever he does, the mucus is continuously there, dropping. Eek!

I may as well be desperate over nothing. I've just never seen this much mucus and "water" and stuff……. bunny doesn't look like dying though, only resting. I'm keeping him warm with heaters. I don't know if I should feed him now as it extremely bothers him..?

My bun's diet hasn't changed before the dental procedures. After the dental procedures (and even before) I was here and my bun always had plenty of variety of the things he always had.
I asked my parents about changes in diet, thinking they could have been lazy and gave my bun less fresh leaves, but they told me: "the problem begun after you were back". That is right.
I've always fed him the same plenty of stuff, he has his leaf preferences, which only changed after the dental procedures. If I'm guilty, I've been doing wrong for a long time…
A long time ago my bun had about 2 onsets of "crying" eyes and sneezing, but vet told us it was allergy (no exams performed). He's always eaten well before january.

 

[Pipp]

There is a BIG difference between a prolapsed rectum and a swollen cecum. One is a big red ball or finger shaped thing protruding out the anus, the other is a fur covered lump on the lower tummy.

If it looks more like a big hemorrhoid, keep it moist with warm water and even a little mineral oil.

The teeth problems may not have started until you got back, but it takes awhile for teeth to grow, so had something changed in his diet, it wouldn't show up as a tooth issue until much later. It could be something as innocent of chewing on a stick or tree that was taken away.

Trauma might have caused it too. He could have fallen or hopped into something and hurt his jaw.

Or as noted, something else could have made him lose his appetite and the spurs start growing.

Still waiting to here from the Bio-Sponge person.


sas :clover: