(RIP) Pasteurella?? (molar spurs)

[MILU]

We got an appointment on Friday (it's a lifetime for me and my bun! But that's "emergency" here).
The dentist said he wants to file the teeth again, and said extracting teeth is not a good idea, as it will mess up the others remaining. I knew he'd say that, and that's exactly why I asked in detail what teeth shall go. I don't know if all will have to be extracted? If my bun can live well without teeth, and he needs it, I'll trust your judgement, whatever you say.
In my opinion, what the dentist thinks is that, if he pulls my bun's teeth, his bank account will get messed up. I agree with you that these filing procedures seem to be damaging the roots, or whatever it is, they're not working and we can't keep doing them to my poor bunny over and over again. About extracting teeth, I still don't know/understand how many or which should go, but I wonder if they could all be extracted at once or if we'd have to do the process in more than 1 day.
Thanks again!
:hug1

 

[tonyshuman]

Sorry I didn't come back on last night. Canned pumpkin is cooked. You can microwave the pumpkin, cut in halves with the seeds and stem removed, or bake it at 350F covered with tinfoil and a bit of water in the pan. Baking usually takes about 20-30 min, microwaving about 10 min. Peel the skin off, let it cool a bit, and give it to him. You can smash it up a bit too, so that it will go through a syringe if needed. Many bunnies like it so much they don't need to be force fed.

The mucus in the poo and the nose could just be from stress. It's hard to say. Some bunnies get runny noses and mucus in the feces from a trip to the vet or from having to be force-fed. Mucus in the poo can also be a sign of GI issues. Pedialyte (dioralyte in the UK) is a good solution, but you could do the water with a tiny bit of sugar (no-calorie sweetener would be better) and some salt.

I still need to look at the teeth more in detail, sorry. Busy week at work.

 

[Pipp]

Hey, great pumpkin advice! I'll add that to the Library/Cheat Sheet.

I've emailed the x-rays to my vet as well, haven't heard back. I'll have to nudge him. :stikpoke

How is he doing today? Is he any more active?


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

Claire, I'm the one who's sorry for bothering you and asking so many questions! I can speak some languages, if any of you ever needs any help about it, let me know! I really appreciate your help, your integrity and the fact that you love animals! :heartbeat:

I used the advice given by SAS and it worked well. My bun ate "a lot" today (60 ml of juices and water - or 50 ml, considering he always misses some). I will try pumpkin later tonight, time my bun is more awake

* The dentist told me again to give Rimadyl (Carprofen) but I've never given it. I heard it has lots of side effects and even killed dogs. I wonder how bad it would be for a little, weak bunny!!
Is there anything else I could give in case my bun has his teeth pulled? Remembering he may need zythromax, thinking of drug interactions.

I'd prefer to have a bun without any teeth than hurt. At least he would eat slurry without any pain. I depend on the dentist doing it, though.. he said he'll "evaluate" my bun on Friday. That means he'll try to convince me not to pull his teeth.

** should I be concerned about the fact that it's 9:38 pm and I haven't seen my bun urinating?? He may have done it earlier today, but the last time I've actually seen it was last night. It was orange (not opaque), didn't look bad.
Today he produced about 3 little droppings only, I haven't seen anything else. He's not in the mood to leave his home event to go to his bathroom, but I haven't seen any pee at his home either.
It feels strange that after having had about 50 ml of juice, none came out yet (although I've started giving the juice about 1 hour ago and finished now). Maybe I'm just too worried? He's usually more active late at night, maybe it's not "time" yet?

Thanks a lot, Claire and Sas!!
:bunnyhug:

 

[MILU]

*** PLEASE DISREGARD the last paragraph! He's just did it
:time:

And I've just found another vet who seems to do dental service on rabbits. I'll take my bun there tomorrow. ray:

 

[tonyshuman]

About Rimadyl, I think it is safe. Why did the vet recommend that particular one? Is meloxicam (Metacam) unavailable? What about tramadol or buprenorphine? Rimadyl is listed as safe on all the websites I could find it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xT...IQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=carprofen rabbit&f=false
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/Rimadyl-dosage.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Analgesics/safe_analgesics.htm

I think there may be adverse reactions in some dogs that are hard to predict, but I can't find info on the same kind of thing happening in rabbits.

More later...

 

[MILU]

Thanks, Claire!
I personally think my vet prescribes Rimadyl because he's the only one who sells it, and it's very expensive, and each time he prescribes it, the price increases.

Tramadol and Meloxicam can be bought anywhere here for about $5-$10, much cheaper and easier to get than Rimadyl. If you tell me the daily dose and for how long I should administer them, I'll use these.

 

[tonyshuman]

This site lists the dosing--you want to take the dose listed in mg/kg and multiply that by his weight in kg. sid = once a day, bid = twice a day, qid= 4 times a day. For buprenorphine, I'd start at the low end and increase if you have to.

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Analgesics/safe_analgesics.htm

 

[tonyshuman]

As for which teeth look to be bad, the ones closest to the throat (#1 on top and bottom, both sides) look pretty bad, and so do the ones farthest from the throat on the top (#5). But I'm no vet.

Is your vet willing to consult with a specialist on rabbit teeth? I know angieluv went to a vet who's a professor at the vet school here and is a real expert on rabbit teeth. If your vet is confident, he may be resistant to consult with another vet, but sending the pictures and x-rays and stuff to that vet electronically might be an option. I have a hard time saying "this tooth needs to go" because I'm not a vet. I do know that many bunnies get along ok without any teeth at all. In addition, it does look like he filed the teeth down a lot last time--but I don't know if maybe he didn't do it evenly, so that they grew back crooked...

Wanted to add too that when you think of whether it's good to remove teeth or not that it's important to think about how well the bunny will recuperate from an extraction surgery. They can be really painful. If there's any infection around the roots, though, they do need to go. I know previously the vet thought that there was no infection. It might be good to look at that again as an option.

 

[MILU]

The new vet only gave my bun 2 injections: Rimadyl and one more (my mother got the name somewhere). Neither tramadol or meloxicam.
He didn't extract any teeth yet, he said he'll try the injections for 2 more days and if they don't work then he "might" do the extraction. It sounds like either nobody wants or nobody is confident to do it!

:foreheadsmack:

 

[tonyshuman]

Yeah, it's a big surgery, and isn't he a bit older? Some vets are less confident working with older bunnies under anesthesia.

 

[MILU]

He's 5... when he gets his teeth filed they use anesthesia too..

I don't think the antibiotic injections given yesterday helped him. Now his droppings got worse, and he got even more quiet.

 

[Pipp]

There HAS to be a high fiber food out there. The Vet doesn't have anything at all for sick animals?

Do you have rabbit pellets you can soak and give to him?

If the vet gave him antibiotics, a probiotic is important. Do you have that?


sas ray:

 

[MILU]

I've been giving probiotic once a day, also pellet slurry. I don't know why the new vet gave my bun the antibiotic yesterday (Baytril + Rimadyl). They only made my bunny worse, as now he goes to his "bathroom" and almost nothing comes out. It wasn't much before anyway and I told the vet about the diarrhea.

I'm explosively mad, because yesterday that new vet made me cancel the appointment we booked for today at my bun's dentist, and today that vet only told us to go see that same dentist he made us cancel!!!!!! :banghead
Also, he said antibiotics should be given for 3 days, and now he's cutting them off and I wonder if this isn't bad for the white mucus (in nose) and sneezing that the last time was solved with zythromax - thanks to YOU from Rabbits Online, not our vets!!!!!

So now, as my bun took antibiotics yesterday, I don't know if I have to immediately give zythromax again, in order to prevent a spread of the respiratory infection, or if I should wait or what.... I'm so lost!
Also, I think of giving metacam - would that make my bun produce droppings?
Is dipirona ok for the pain?
he hasn't taken anything today. The new vet made things much worse only, and now simply told us to go to the dentist (as I would have done if it wasn't for him!), leaving my bun with the damage.
Now I understand why I've been losing so much hair that it seems I'll go bald.
ullhair: :X

 

[Pipp]

I've asked my vet and another source, so hang tough.

Definitely increase the pellet slurry though.



sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

Definitely not dipirona. I'm not sure that medicam will help if the rimadyl didn't, he may be suffering more from lack of food than pain.

But if you give him some, make sure he has a good bit of slurry and water in his system before he gets it.


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

Today he's already eaten 20 ml of apple + carrot juice and 10 ml of pumpkin juice (he can't swallow well the pumpkin puree), and 12 ml of "thinner" liquids like water. It seems like he really wants to go to the "bathroom" since yesterday. He goes to the place and tries for some time and nothing comes out, I can see it's been a source of distress for him, and maybe the reason why he almost doesn't move (only to run away from feeding). I usually like to give richer foods at night, when he should be more active. How many "ml" should be the minimum to feed him? I don't know if I give enough, about 50-75 ml/day of freshly blended juices and water.

I don't know if Rimadyl worked or not, I just know that the vet said: "as he's worse (not moving, not producing droppings), let's not give it to him anymore; take him back to the dentist". I wish he had told me yesterday NOT to cancel the appointment! He had given the impression he could do the extraction. Now we may only get one appointment for Tuesday - if we're lucky...

Thank you all for being there and always willing to help. You make me believe there are still good people in this world!

 

[Pipp]

I doubt that is constipation, its either gas or he's straining to pee. Has he been peeing okay before now? I suspect its gas.

He's getting a lot of fluids but still not much fiber. What is the contents of the pellets? Do you have the ingredients list with the fiber and protein counts?

Can you give him gas meds containing Simethicone? Long tummy massages will also help, and gentle exercise.

The pain meds should help this a little, but you have to make sure they're not causing further upset.

I'd ease up on the fluids and try for more fiber. But first try the massage and simethicone, ASAP.


sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

My vet, Dr. Martinez, is taking a look at this.

Can you quickly summarize his diet from before his teeth started acting up right through to now?

Thanks.

EDIT: Ah, I just realized most of it is in the other thread...

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53715&forum_id=16

I don't know why after five years that molar spurs are suddenly not only appearing, but they're in appearing in overdrive.

If we can get him through this bout, hopefully there's a good diet and/or surgery plan that can help for the future.


sas :? :clover:

 

[Pipp]

hotmaildeal wrote:

Today he's already eaten 20 ml of apple + carrot juice and 10 ml of pumpkin juice (he can't swallow well the pumpkin puree), and 12 ml of "thinner" liquids like water. It seems like he really wants to go to the "bathroom" since yesterday. He goes to the place and tries for some time and nothing comes out, I can see it's been a source of distress for him, and maybe the reason why he almost doesn't move (only to run away from feeding). I usually like to give richer foods at night, when he should be more active. How many "ml" should be the minimum to feed him? I don't know if I give enough, about 50-75 ml/day of freshly blended juices and water.

As noted, this bunny needs fiber, all these fluids and veggies could be causing the upset.

Its better to stick with subcutaneous fluids and high fiber for the force-feeding, the bunny pellets mushed up.

I just heard back from my best source(s), Rami (MediRabbit.com, Etherbun Yahoo Group), and they are in agreement with this.

Here's the gist of the post:

---------

If molars are having problem this often, the option of pulling molars should be seriously considered. Repeated gas anesthesia is not so much the problem, the stress of monthly visits to the vet, discomfort after the treatment, pain.

At this rate, if no (infection) problems now, they will come sooner or later, as the wounds in the mouth will never have time to fully heal, and there is already a new trim waiting.

... grind pellets in a coffee grinder (the cheapest available will do) and add water to make a puree. It is as good as Critical care. Probiotics can be given or added to the puree.

> The owner had him on Zithromax for a previous bout but it
> did affect his appetite and GI tract so she's afraid to try
> again given that he's not eating.

This is sometimes observed in rabbits, and goes (away) after 3 to 4 days of antibiotics. It is mainly due to bacteria dying, releasing toxins, causing discomfort.

> of baytril and a shot of rimadyl, apparently he's also had a
> runny nose, the rabbit is now worse.

There are many other antibiotics safe for use in rabbits.
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

> giving him veggies in a blender.

This will lead to weight loss. She better uses pellets for rabbits, even poor quality ones will do well. The rabbit needs energy and solid food, not watery food that will contribute to diarrhea.

As to runny nose, this can indicate a root problem with the incisors, compression of the naso-lachrymal duct, leading to watery discharge.

-------

I really do trust the sources on Etherbun and MediRabbit.



sas :clover: