(RIP) Pasteurella?? (molar spurs)

[MILU]

Hi Sas

Yes, I remember the article...
my fear is that maybe pulling teeth will leave an empty space and maybe other teeth could get crooked moving towards the open spaces?
I don' know how many molars would have to go. Last time he had teeth filed, he had 1 real big spur (same tooth as before) and lots of other teeth in different sizes, causing malocclusion. So you think my bun could get ok even without too many teeth, if it's the case he shall need to pull many? ray:
I also remember what was posted about antibiotics. I'd totally go for them if I found the ones missing (+ a vet willing to administer the injections!) but at this point, I start thinking the spurs are also a big problem...

** does "the opposite tooth" mean the one above/below the offending one?

Thanks SO much, you always give me great advice!
:big kiss:

 

[Pipp]

I think they just need to pull the opposite tooth. So if they pull a molar on the right, they need to take the one on the left, too. That said, my vet pulled three teeth from Twinkles, so maybe its not a solid rule (or maybe he didn't know that).

Bunnies can do quite well without any teeth, but you may need to get creative with his diet.


sas :clover:

 

[tonyshuman]

Some of the top molars aren't opposed--they don't have one on the bottom opposite them. I know they have to take the top tooth and the bottom, and it makes sense that they should take the left and right as well, but I haven't heard that one before. When I hear someone say "the opposite tooth" I think the one on the bottom if it's on the top, etc.

 

[MILU]

Thanks for your input! Not being savvy at all, I'm a bit confused about how the molars shall be extracted, so I'm uploading some pics with the teeth numbered. It would be great if you could tell me which ones should go and which should stay. I numbered them as "SL" (superior left), "SR" (superior right), "IL" (inferior left) and "IR" (inferior right) with numbers starting from 1 (in the back of his mouth, near the throat) to 5 (closer to the mouth opening). I can see only 4 inferior molars in the pic (don't know if I'm seeing it right), if there are 5 on each side, please let me know and consider #1 to be still nearer to the throat and 5 farther from it.

I guess this way there won't be mistakes. I'll explain to my bun's dentist which teeth shall go, according to what you say.

I'm also posting again the pics of the 1st dental procedure filing spurs (01/22/2010) and the 2nd, on 04/13/2010.

It seems like the second time my bun got ALL his molars files, superior and inferior. Well, that's what I see in the pics, not what they told me, as they hardly told me anything after the procedure.
I'm not sure if having had problems on all molars means he should get them all extracted? He's being fed leaves/pellets juice. He refuses even soft ground leaves I process on the blender. It may be because he's hurt, if he can survive of these things well, then there's no problem.
He's got diarrhea now, I feel so bad for him… maybe because he's not eating any solids? I give probiotics once a day.

Your input is beyond price, I appreciate your time and efforts, you're real heroes! :thanks:

 

[MILU]

1st dental procedure with teeth filed (on 01/22/2010) pics:

2nd dental filing (on 04/13/2010) pics:

Numbered teeth, so you can tell me which ones shall go:

 

[tonyshuman]

Here's a good poster for rabbit teeth:

The Photobucket links are working for me...

For the most recent trim, it looks like on the top and bottom, the worst tooth was M3 (the 3rd molar) on his left. M3 on the right was bad on the top too, and the two premolars (P1) on the top that are unopposed--there are 3 premolars on the top and 1 on the bottom--were bad too. The numbering system your vet used is a bit different, I will need some more time to look at it.

 

[Pipp]

The diarrhea is of immediate concern. Are you giving him Critical Care or something like it? He needs a lot of fiber and fluids. Do you have canned pumpkin there?


sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

:headsmack The opposing referencing may well mean top and bottom.

I've sent the link to my vet, hopefully he'll respond soon.


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

Great chart!! I was looking for something like that and couldn't find.

It wasn't my vet who numbered the teeth, it was me.. I didn't even know there are molars and premolars and I couldn't find all the 5 inferior teeth on each side..
I only made that numbering to know what teeth should go, as I didn't understand the "opposite" rule too well. Do you think my bun should get all molars and premolars extracted?
I thought the worst was M2. It seems like there's one tooth behind the inferior ugly one-?
I'm not sure if I can see well what's inside there. If you could write me all numbers (according to your chart) that shall go, it's gonna be great; as an example: superior and inferior M3 left and right side (all four M3), one P1 superior left, etc, 2 inferior P2 (right and left side), etc.. I don't want to miss any that shall go.

SAS:
we don't have neither critical care or canned pumpkin.
I tried to feed my bun pumpkin before, when he was ok, but he doesn't like it.. But I got pumpkin here. Should I make a juice and give him? I suppose I shall not cook it, right?

Thanks again. Hopefully soon he'll be ok!

 

[MILU]

I don't want to think so, but my bunny made some droppings (diarrhea) and there's a stain in the place that looks like blood. I'm not sure if it really is blood or if it's just a "colored" stain from the dropping. His stool is not watery, it's soft and comes out bigger than average droppings, sometimes smaller (sometimes as a cluster of smaller droppings all attached), but not watery. I don't know if that was blood or just a stain from diarrhea. The thing like "blood" was a stain under a big piece of stool. I'm shaking, so nervous!!!
His urine doesn't have any blood, though.

 

[Pipp]

Its probably just residue from a watery cecal. They have two kinds of poop, its almost always the cecals that get runny from diet or stress issues. They can have normal fecal poops at the same time.


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

This is like a video game: when I think I won a phase, all the former "enemies" come back at the same time to destroy my bun and I have to save him.

I noticed my bun started sneezing this evening and now I've just seen a little puddle of white mucus close to where my bunny was. Same kind he had before, and when I gave him azithromycin that time he got ok.

Shall I give him the antibiotic again? I'm trying to get an appointment with the dentist, but God knows when they'll have time. They don't do emergency and appointments depend on their mood to book them.
Rabbits are such good pets, it's incredible we have almost no vets to take care of them, and the ones who do, don't seem to do it seriously.

I don't know if I should try getting the teeth extracted before giving the antibiotic, or the opposite. I don't know if this white mucus can be caused by teeth. I'm so confused. My bun seems distressed this time, more than the other times. He's not moving much, not even to go to his "bathroom", he won't play... he's very bloated, when I move him I hear his belly like drums.

He refuses to eat. I don't know if the juices I give him make him worse?
Fresh carrot leaves + broccoli leaves + pellets juice. Now I blended carrot + a few sunflower seeds juice (to see if he'd like it).. should I give him raw pumpkin juice? He can't eat any solids, only juices.. but he hates them I won't give up, but my bun seems tired of it all....
:bigtears:

 

[Pipp]

Poor bunny.

You're in a tough spot.

I'd probably try the antibiotics ASAP given the mucus, but he's got a serious digestive upset.

I'd give him long long tummy rubs, keep him very warm and cross your fingers.




sas ray:

 

[Pipp]

PS: The fluids have been good, but if you've been giving them to him, he should be hydrated enough so let him rest.

If you can give him a pro-biotic, though that would be good.

 

[MILU]

Aw.. I was hoping to hear that the antibiotic could be left for later. His diarrhea is bad enough without them.
I don't see the mucus in his nose. I only saw it on the "puddle" once tonight but I know it's not a good sign. Maybe he's getting sick because when I syringe juice, his chin gets wet and he doesn't let me dry it properly? I was hoping the mucus was dental though.
The fluids are all his 'food'. I don't know how much is enough. I guess today I already gave him 30 ml total, between water and juice. I'd give 15 ml more tonight, but if you think he's had enough, I may leave him alone. Thanks again!

 

[Pipp]

Could the mucus be coming from his bottom? A gel-like mucus is another sign of intestinal distress.

If the Zithromax has bothered him before and you're dealing with the intestinal mucus, then hold off on the antibiotics but still find a probiotic.

He really needs a solid fiber, but at this stage you just have to keep him going.

Do you have Metacam or Baby Motrin? (Ibuprofen?) He's probably in a lot of pain.


sas ray:

 

[MILU]

I can get Ibuprofen or Metacam. How much should I give? They won't affect the intestines, right?

I haven't seen where the mucus came from tonight, but my bun was sneezing this evening, and It looked like the same kind of mucus as the other time, when it came from his nose. He hasn't sneezed for the last hours though, and I've seen no more mucus as well, but if I touch his nose, it's wet. There's translucent mucus in his feces, not the same, it seems.

I try to make the juices as thick as possible but there are no syringes at all that allow thick stuff to pass through! If I try to put "grind leaf patty" in my bun's mouth, he spits it all out. His mouth is so hurt he can't even drink water by himself, and he hates syringing too. I guess the spurs make it hard for him to swallow, must have hurt his tongue really bad.

When kids here are dehydrated with diarrhea, we mix 1 glass of water, 1 spoon of sugar and a tiny bit of salt and give to them. Do you think this can help my bun? I don't even know how to clean him.. he won't even let me!
h34r2

 

[Pipp]

I'd get him back to a Vet ASAP where he can get a subcutaneous infusion of fluids (under the skin) and a shot of antibiotics if they think its necessary. And they can give pain meds at the right dose. He has to have something in his stomach before you can give him Metacam, so that might not work. Maybe Tramadol or something.

I'm sure the Vet will also have some sort of high fiber paste for feeding sick herbivores, that's the most important thing.

Best to find an electrolyte replacement without sugar -- like Pedialyte for babies, here -- and failing that try Gatorade (assuming you have that).


sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

Here's a Library entry about force feeding. (Not very complete, but it might help).

Force Feeding

 

[MILU]

Thanks!! I tried to look for children's electrolyte drink earlier today. It seems like it doesn't exist here. We don't have any of the options for a bun with diarrhea
Is canned pumpkin cooked pumpkin?
I searched what "rice sock" is, that sounds like a great idea. I'll spread them everywhere my bun likes to stay