(RIP) Pasteurella?? (molar spurs)

[MILU]

I'm not sure if the weird noises come from the lungs. It happens sort of randomly or when my bunny eats, drinks or moves more than when he breathes. I'm trying to find an explanation that makes sense for that. He never made the noises when examined, so it's hard to understand what they are.

They're not the sort of noises made "on purpose" though, and it seems like they're painful. If he's eating and the noise erupts, he stops eating and hides. If he moves and the noise erupts again, he moves in a different position, etc.
Sorry for talking about this all the time. I know it sounds weird.

 

[Pipp]

This is something only the Vet will be able to figure out. It will take a stethoscope to hear exactly where the noise is coming from. If it is the lungs, I'd get a check x-ray.

Is he sitting up more than usual? Is his nose pointing up?


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

He stays in the position I call "square" more (I don't know what "sit up" is). He stays like this:

(*this is not my bunny)

His nose is not pointing up. He moves his mouth a lot, and "chews nothing" more than before.

 

[MILU]

AND the "great" Brazilian fact of the day is:
My bunny doesn't want to eat any food, but he still eats sunflower seeds if I peel them. I took some from the package (SUPPOSED to be aseptic) and.. there was a BUG inside it. I am ABSOLUTELY MAD. Don't know if this has to do with my bun having gotten sick.
The bug was like this:

 

[MILU]

You're always so right. My bunny had a big dental spur in one of the teeth that was filed in January... :shock2:

 

[tonyshuman]

My bunnies will sit like that picture (duck or chicken pose) and contentedly grind their teeth sometimes...

 

[MILU]

:thanks:

Now, some days after removing his dental spur for the 2nd time, he's eating and doing his bunny activities more normally. His droppings aren't yet too many but have better shape and size for sure.
:juggle


Still he won't eat all sorts of foods he ate before, but he can eat sunflower seeds without having them peeled. He couldn't do this after the 1st time he had dental spurs filed until now. I just hope I don't have to take him to the dentist every 2 months or so.

It's funny when I offer him something and he turns his head like we (humans) do to say "no" with a gesture. Does anyone have bunnies that do that, too??
:nosir: :disgust:

We don't have the same kind of hay you have for bunnies, we have alfafa hay. I give my bunny that alfafa hay and plenty of fresh leaves (like carrot leaves, broccoli leaves, cabbage, endive, etc.), carrots, 2 kinds of pellets, fruits, sunflower seeds...

* I'll post pics of the latest procedure when I have them scanned.

 

[tonyshuman]

My bunnies do that sometimes--it's more of a head flick though.

:headflick:
I wouldn't give much sunflower seeds--they have a lot of protein which can be hard to digest. It must be hard to get his teeth worn down by hay when all you can get it is alfalfa.

 

[MILU]

The dentist said fresh leaves would be the best thing to wear his teeth down, but it seems like it hasn't worked too well.
I heard sunflower seeds aren't good, I don't give too many. The vets here said about 3/ day is ok - do you agree?

Sunflower seeds are what I use to "test" my bunny. He loves them, if he refuses to eat them, I know right away there's something wrong with him. An example: after having his teeth filed the 1st time he wouldn't eat them unless peeled. The dentist never accepted something wasn't perfect after the 1st procedure, but I know my bun.. and then we had to take him back for a 2nd procedure... hopefully he'll be ok now.

 

[tonyshuman]

I see--I am guilty of using things like yogurt drops and Craisins as treats to "test" them. We call that "the treat test", and it's a good way to tell how they're feeling. 3 a day might be a bit much, in terms of the fat they have, but if he seems to be an ok weight it's probably fine.

It's true that fresh greens have minerals in them that wear the teeth down. Fresh grasses have even more of it, so if you can feed him grass that's safe from outside or grass you grow on your windowsill that might be good. Grass is so easy to grow--I am currently growing wheat and rye grass because my guys love it as a guilt-free treat.

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

hotmaildeal wrote:

The dentist said fresh leaves would be the best thing to wear his teeth down, but it seems like it hasn't worked too well.
I heard sunflower seeds aren't good, I don't give too many. The vets here said about 3/ day is ok - do you agree?

Sunflower seeds are what I use to "test" my bunny. He loves them, if he refuses to eat them, I know right away there's something wrong with him. An example: after having his teeth filed the 1st time he wouldn't eat them unless peeled. The dentist never accepted something wasn't perfect after the 1st procedure, but I know my bun.. and then we had to take him back for a 2nd procedure... hopefully he'll be ok now.

hi,brazil-you sound rabbit savy,,but i need to put emphasis on -what is a good rabbit diet.//.first the daily diet needs to be 70% -ie.timothy/orchard grasses-this is a non digestible fiber,necessary to keep the teeth ground down,and the gitract happy.//.quality-lowfat pellets-small amount daily,lots of water,and,with-fruit tree branches/twigs,-ie--from-pear,apple,plum trees,,and maybe a treat generally weeds from the safe list(house of rabbit/adoptarabbit)-.,now you indicate issues requiring antibiotics,perhaps azithromyicin,,and probotics.metacam for pain//.facial radiogragh will tell all,,the white tear drop isnot good--the tear ducts are internal and most likely the eye teeth have grown (due to a lack of chewing)-into the these ducts.//.any tooth spurs,or misalignment and the rabbit will sit huddled(square)-grinding his teeth in pain/agony,,eating will come to a halt and gi stasis will begin.//.must keep the rabbit hydrated,,fed,and treated asap...sincerely james waller--be aware of a disease called myxi-if gathering weeds outside,,dvm should be able to inform you..

 

[Pipp]

I just posted this somewhere else, but it applies here as well.

I think you have mulberry leaves in your area that are pretty plentiful?

They've done studies where bunnies were fed those instead of alfalfa and they ended up healthier than the alfalfa bunnies.

Sweet potato vines and grape vines are good, and safe tree bark should also help.

Go for lots of shapes and textures.

And just about any grass is good I think, tho not sure about that, and not sure what you've got in your region. What do the wild rabbits eat?



sas :bunnydance:

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

Pipp wrote:

I just posted this somewhere else, but it applies here as well.

I think you have mulberry leaves in your area that are pretty plentiful?

They've done studies where bunnies were fed those instead of alfalfa and they ended up healthier than the alfalfa bunnies.

Sweet potato vines and grape vines are good, and safe tree bark should also help.

Go for lots of shapes and textures.

And just about any grass is good I think, tho not sure about that, and not sure what you've got in your region. What do the wild rabbits eat?



sas :bunnydance:

my cotton tail eats,likes, white russet potato,,and it is on the safe list--however the vines,,leave are of the nightshade family,,,with sweet potato-on the no-no list,..i am suprised the sweet potato vine is,ok.??.,alfalfa--is of the clover family-therefore a digestible fiber,which should only be offered as a treat,,however webster says its a hay--it cannot be both,,grass/hay,,--tomato is good,,but the plant is bad,---on-on-and on,,they say rabbiting is no a perfect science,,but we keep trying,,,sincerely james waller:thumbup:scared::biggrin2:

 

[MILU]

Claire: you made me feel less guilty using the "treat test", heheh
I didn't know 3 is too much.. but yes, my bun's new name is "skeleton", he's very skinny now. In January, he weighed 2,5 kilos when sick (and already skinny!), and was 2.2 kilos some weeks ago. I wonder if giving him forbidden things like bread would help him gain body mass to help him… he's pure skin and bones. I keep feeding him the good things now that he's eating alright, though.
Thanks for the grass tip. I'll try to grow it at home. I know nothing about types of grass, but I know we have it different from yours. It sounds like a great idea to grow it at home!


James Waller: Thanks a lot!!!
The spur has been filed for this 2nd time already, he's eating again. The other issue also disappeared with the antibiotic.
I don't think myxi is an issue, my bun hardly ever goes out. He lives on the 13th floor of a building, not in a cage, he's free to go where he wants. He doesn't enjoy leaving the apartment, so I don't think much of taking him out for a walk downstairs in the common area of my building. We have no other pets living here.
Thanks for the tips on foods too!!
* I give my bun alfalfa hay but he doesn't like it much. Only sometimes, and he bites it, like, twice. I give mango and guava tree twigs and leaves whenever I find one of those trees in a height I can get them. Not much of the guava, but mango seems to be pretty safe.
:hanging:


Sas: Great suggestions too! Thanks! Yes, we have mulberry trees, I will look for them and get the leaves. Sweet potato and grape vines aren't that easy to find (although sweet potatoes and grapes are)… I tried to give tree bark years ago, but my bun didn't want to eat any of it, so I gave up.
Wild rabbits? I guess they're eaten more than they eat around here..!? I've never seen any wild rabbit here, anywhere...
:bunnysuit:

 

[MILU]

* How long are rabbits supposed to be "spur-free" after having them filed?

Yesterday I started hearing tooth-friction noise when my bun eats (a BAD noise, not the normal noise they make while chewing, it's more like the sound of a fork scratching a pan, or so). :nerves1

Good thing is I haven't heard the "weird noise" from inside my bun for about 2 days.
:biggrin2:

But I suspect his dentist isn't doing that greatness of a job, as my bun never ate 100% normally after the dental procedures, like the dentist said he would.
I very politely told him that, and he didn't come back to talk to me after the 2nd procedure, he asked someone else to do it and bring my bunny to me. It seemed that he was ashamed or afraid. :embarrassed:

I hope he's not filing my bun's teeth in a way there's malocclusion that will make him have to go back there all the time. His staff actually said "it seems like we'll see you again next month" more than once, and told stories about other pets that return every 1 or 2 months. :X

I find it weird about my bun because it took 5 years for the first problem to appear, and suddenly, being given the same food and treated the same way, it took only about 2 months for a bigger spur to be there, also with malocclusion this time (bun didn't have this before!) - how weird!!!!!! My mom thinks filing makes the problem worse. I suspect it's not the "filing", but the way it's being done!? ssd:

All pets I saw there were returning for a 2nd, 3rd, "n".. procedure. As we always have to pay hundreds again for "follow-ups", it can be interesting for them to do things in a "wrong-ish" way. Oh well, it's just my opinion, as there's no one who can legally check what they do in this ignorant country, and it's weird how fast it took a bigger problem to appear. I hope I'm wrong. :tears2:


That's why I always praise people who have real feelings and heart, like you, who really like animals, who are interested in their welfare for real! You give me a reason to believe there are still good people in this world! CONGRATS, you are all amazing!
:great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great::great:

 

[tonyshuman]

You might want to up his protein levels to get more body tone, although with age bunnies start to lose muscle tone. I would think that more protein would be better than more carbs or fat. The sunflower seeds are probably fine if you want to get some more weight on him. Alfalfa hay can help with that too.

I don't know much Portuguese, but if you could find out what hays they feed to cows and horses in Brazil that might help. There must be some kind of grass hay that grows there. We've had members from all over the world, and there are many different kinds of grass hays. I remember one species of grass hay from South Africa that I had never heard of before. In the US, we have orchard grass, bermuda grass, oat hay, and timothy hay.

I found this rather off-topic reference where they fed some cows bermuda grass, so maybe that's available?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6917/is_2_22/ai_n31464511/
:dunno:

As for tooth trims, some people on here have bunnies that have to go in every 4-6 weeks. However, he should be back to normal within a few days after the procedure. The filing can make his mouth sore and make the few days right after a bit hard to eat.

That's terrible that you have to pay for follow-up procedures, and that the vets don't really know what they're doing.

I would suspect that the reason it's not getting better is because the problem builds on itself. If one tooth is a little but off, it causes the rest of the teeth to get really messed up, sometimes. I wonder if the vet is worried to remove too much of a tooth, and is instead not removing enough.

Also, the procedure of tooth filing is similar to something they do to horses teeth called floating, I think. If you could find a vet that did horses and rabbits (I would love to have one of these myself!), they might know better what to do. Rabbits are a lot more like horses than they are like cats or dogs.

 

[MILU]

I hope I find that good grass and that my bun's teeth stay ok for longer. I bought something for rabbits (like a calcium stone?) that is good for their teeth, but my bun doesn't like it much. Good thing is I almost haven't heard the "weird noise" anymore!

Yes, I suspect if 1 tooth is slightly out of the place, it will make a general mess. That must happen when my bun gets his teeth filed. I'll give him a big party and tell him if he gets sick again, no more parties for him. Maybe that will help, hahaha

 

[MILU]

I hope I find that good grass and that my bun's teeth stay ok for longer. I bought something for rabbits (like a calcium stone?) that is good for their teeth, but my bun doesn't like it much. Good thing is I almost haven't heard the "weird noise" anymore!

Yes, I suspect if 1 tooth is slightly out of the place, it will make a general mess. That must happen when my bun gets his teeth filed. I'll give him a big party and tell him if he gets sick again, no more parties for him. Maybe that will help, hahaha

 

[MILU]

Not even 1 month after having had his teeth filed, my bun is drooling, not eating, with his stomach messed up, etc... - again!

I gave him mulberry leaves and some grass (don't know what kind) some weeks ago, but he ignored them.
I think he can't eat them, as well as other foods; his teeth were never 100% ok after filed.. he cold only eat carrot leaves, broccoli leaves and pellets, and now he doesn't want to eat anything at all again. He's even been refusing sunflower seeds!
At least I found out that the "weird noise" is associated to his dental problems, as now he's gotten worse again and the "weird noises" are back.

I know I'll have to take my bunny back to the dentist. I just don't know how it took 5 years for my bun to have ONE dental spur and after having it fixed, he's having spurs, malocclusion, whatever else, and it takes less than 1 month for all these issues to reappear...

Anyway, I want to thank you all again, everybody knows that all of you from Rabbits Online are the ones who always save my bunny!
THANKS!

 

[Pipp]

I'd say get the dentist to pull them. ASAP.

I was just in with my friend's older bunny for his teeth and the vet took out three of his molars, he bounced back very quickly and has been one happy bunny.

Part of the problem is that as rabbits age, they get long tooth roots. It could be that the tooth roots have bothered him and they're affecting his chewing and that in turn is causing the spurs, or the dental procedures themselves are disrupting the roots and causing problems.

I posted this article before, I'm not sure if you printed it out for the vets, but here's an excerpt:


http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreview/article500.asp

There is some controversy about how much to remove from the teeth. Some practitioners remove only the offending spur. It is not my aim to restore normal occlusion. By the time these procedures are required any return to normal occlusion is impossible as there have been irreversible changes to the tooth roots and dental disease will be permanent.

Some reports suggest burring will lead to heat necrosis of the tooth roots but I have seen no evidence in the many cases I deal with to support that contention. However there is good evidence to suggest that occlusive pressure will drive affected teeth back into their sockets, and this disrupts the normal anatomy of the tooth apex. The gingival attachment and the periosteum are damaged.

Once again, as in the case of microfractures of the incisors, bacteria of the oral cavity can reach the tooth root and surrounding bone.

By burring to within a millimetre of the gingival margin some of this occlusal pressure is relieved, and the likelihood of tooth root abscesses and associated osteomyelitis decreased. My clinical impression has been that rabbits that have their teeth shortened this way also return to eating more quickly, possibly because the root elongation has been painful.

I think the tooth root could now have been disturbed, and even if this isn't the case, the spurs are coming up too fast to keep up with. Best to pull the offending molars and possibly the opposite one as well.

You may have to feed him already chopped veggies and maybe pellet mush (although its more likely he'll be able to eat pellets without a problem), but its very workable.



sas :clover: