RESOLVED: I suspect Zeus has a blockage (eating mattress stuffing)

[TinysMom]

IMMEDIATE INFORMATION:


Location TEXAS

Description (Breed, color, weight) FLEMISH GIANT MIX - 8 pounds or so

Age 3-4 years?

Sex Male

Concise Summary of the Rabbit's Condition:

Zeus has been chewing on my mattress off and on and a couple of days ago he removed a big wad of the stuffing (I can't find it anywhere).

On Friday night he didn't each much and on Saturday night he turned down bananas and strawberries (1/2 banana and 1/2 strawberry) plus his food.

In addition - he fell while trying to get on the bed the other day and he is acting like he is a little sore on one side from that.

~~~~

Today he got to spend a couple of hours outside in the dog kennel where he ran around a bit and played. He also ate some grass and a couple of dry leaves. Our yard is not treated with anything - so I am not worried about that. I did notice some dandelion greens and I may pick him some tomorrow morning to see if he'll go for them.

I went out to Walmart tonight and picked up some cilantro, romaine, mint leaves, "herb mix" salad, watermelon and pineapple. He has eaten about a dozen of the stems/leaves of the cilantro - and a bit of the romaine.

I also bought him 100% juice (preferably no sugar added) to mix with his water - I'm going to start out with 20-25% juice and the rest water.

He is having normal poops at this point in time (and several of them - not as much as usual but not just one or two either).

My current plan of action is to:

• get more iv fluids tomorrow in case I need them (that I can get locally)
• email his vet in San Antonio to see if he needs to come in (I'd rather avoid the stress of the trip if I can right now)
• continue to push the greens (soaked a bit before he gets them) and maybe the pineapple
• give him daily run time out in the dog kennel

Before I start getting pm's from folks going, "You're not a vet...how come you're not going to a vet..", etc. - it isn't that I'm not willing to go to a vet. It is that we caught this really early and I'm not sure if a vet is NEEDED or if it will cause more stress.

My concerns are:

• How much should I be pushing fluids if he ate mattress STUFFING? Will it make it swell up so he won't eat?
• Should I be using nutri-cal?
• I know we say not to use the hairball remedy for cats - why?
• At what point do I move to forcefeeding (if need be) pumpkin, etc.

I have pumpkin and baby food on hand - along with critical care and other things I can use. Zeus HATES the flavor of pedialyte which is why I went with juices...I know he needs electrolytes but is there any other way for him to get them? Usually he tries to throw the pedialyte back onto me...

 

[GoinBackToCali]

Oh no..

I will keep him in my thoughts.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

Me too, I hope he'll be okay, onry(sp) bunner.

Best of luck with him Peg.

Edit: I'm no Infirmary Mod, but just wanted to ask a couple qs.

He ate half his food, will he takea treat? Did you try the treat test? Is moving around pretty normally except for the fall accident? Drinking water normally? Still good poops?

If he fails the treat test, wait to see if he eats, what he eats. You could try some gas meds and see if that helps. Pumpkin is okay to give to move things along.

That's all I have for now. Good Luck, come on Zeus, pass it and stay off the bed, stinker, hee.

 

[Pipp]

Hmmm... tough one.

I think you can have one of two or three issues here.

He doesn't have a true blockage, he's still pooping and his stomach isn't distended, right? It could be the fiber is moving through his system and causing discomfort. If it was an obstruction, he'd have a more immediate onset of near-critical symptoms.

OR. He could be suffering the effects gas which could have been amplified by spring grass, which I've been meaning to post a warning about. Its very rich and can often cause gas and sometimes maybe even bloat. But his is a slow progression, so it would be the former. Most everything else he's getting can be contributing to the gas.

OR. He could have something else altogether going on internally that caused the missed jump and the gas/gut slowdown.

Is his pee normal? No straining, nothing like that? No signs of a possible infection anywhere else? No pain responses from any body parts?

I have to look into the differences in treating a synthetic fiber blockage/mass/slowdown vs. a natural one. A natural mass is broken down by fluids and digestive juices. I'm sure synthetic fibers require hydration as well but I don't know if the mass itself needs to be hydrated or just the tract. If its the latter, maybe mineral oil -- but not hairball remedies, only laxative-type unscented mineral oil - may be of some use. (Its a good preventative measure - if used sparingly - during molts). I'm going to do some more research on that one (unless someone else can answer that question).

At this stage, though, over-treating can be as bad as under-treating.

Is he eating hay? I think you want to stop giving him anything that might cause more gas, so just push hay and water or if he's not eating anything at all, some well-soaked Critical Care for a bit. Normally I'd push wet veggies, too, but I think its best to avoid them for a bit. (And NO treats).

Do you have simethicone? I've give him a few large doses of that and some tummy rubs and see how he responds. Gassy bunnies will usually tolerate it once they realize it makes them feel better, but if its another issue, they won't tolerate it at all. That's often a sign.

With Critical Care, he shouldn't need sub-q fluids at this stage.


Here's an excerpt from a Dana Krempels article:

[align=JUSTIFY]E. Petroleum-based laxatives: use with caution.[/align]

• Laxative-grade mineral oil or commercial products such as Laxatone or Petromalt do not affect intestinal motility. Some veterinarians prescribe them in the hope that they might help to slide dry, impacted matter through the intestine more easily. Note, however, that if the intestinal contents are severely dehydrated and brick-hard (yes, we have seen this!), a coating of vaseline-like substance over them will merely impede their re-hydration and make it more difficult for the mass to break up and begin passing normally. For this reason, it is probably wise to concentrate on re-hydrating the intestinal contents before using petroleum-based laxatives, if they are to be used at all.
  Note also that whereas malt-flavored remedies in a tube are often preferred by the bunny, some vets believe that their higher viscosity may actually contribute to holding a mass of impacted food together, especially if the intestinal contents are dehydrated. Unscented, laxative grade mineral oil is less viscous, and may be more effective. Always administer such substances with care so that the bunny does not aspirate (inhale) any. Petroleum-based laxatives should not be given daily or long term, as they can impede the absorption of important, fat-soluble vitamins.

sas :clover:

 

[TinysMom]

Pipp - the symptoms presented themselves BEFORE he went outside and was exposed to the gas.

His abdomen/stomach does feel different to me. Not hard like bloat...but full - more full than usual.

Perhaps it is best to say he is having a "slowdown" versus a "shutdown".

I just spent a few minutes with him before continuing on with this note...here are my observations.

He is still peeing fine. No signs of strain.

He ate all of the cilantro he was given and about 1 - 1 1/4 romaine leaves.

He is alert and somewhat active - but still sits as if he is uncomfortable.

I understand why you think it is gas - but the fact is - there is a chunk of my mattress stuffing that is missing and it can't be found anywhere...

Now to get the stuffing out of him...

 

[tonyshuman]

Is the stuffing synthetic or natural fiber? I think synthetic fiber would be less of a problem in terms of the stuffing getting wet and expanding. Natural fiber probably would expand when wet.

I think you're doing a good job and have gotten lots of good advice so far.

I don't give Nutrical or force food or water unless the bunny isn't eating/drinking on its own.

Sometimes a material obstruction of the GI tract can lead to gas. Stuff moving through more slowly can allow gas to build up and also kill the good bacteria, allowing the bad to grow. I would use some probiotic for sure.

 

[TinysMom]

I'd have to take a picture of the stuffing - its sorta orangish/tan? I'm thinking maybe it is natural but I'm not sure.

He did finish up his salad from last night - I'm guessing maybe 1 - 1 1/2 cups total. I'm about to give him more.

 

[Pipp]

TinysMom wrote:

Pipp - the symptoms presented themselves BEFORE he went outside and was exposed to the gas.

His abdomen/stomach does feel different to me. Not hard like bloat...but full - more full than usual.

Perhaps it is best to say he is having a "slowdown" versus a "shutdown".

I just spent a few minutes with him before continuing on with this note...here are my observations.

He is still peeing fine. No signs of strain.

He ate all of the cilantro he was given and about 1 - 1 1/4 romaine leaves.

He is alert and somewhat active - but still sits as if he is uncomfortable.

I understand why you think it is gas - but the fact is - there is a chunk of my mattress stuffing that is missing and it can't be found anywhere...

Now to get the stuffing out of him...

It IS gas. The question is why its gas. People tend to confuse 'gas', 'bloat', 'stasis', 'imbalance', and 'blockage' I find. Gas comes with pretty much the works.

I tend to call it as a 'gas' problem when it's from 'something they ate'. And that includes mattress stuffing, unless it's caused a blockage.

If its gas from a natural substance like a veggie sensitivity or a rotted bit or something, it's usually short-term. (The danger here is the symptoms of a true blockage can be similar, thus I use the 12 hour window -- a substantial gas attack with a sudden onset and a bunny who will not eat, but will drink a bit, that's not over in 12 hours max is an ER trip).

The above scenario doesn't apply to Zeus, he's not showing symptoms of either, it's just for the record because a rabbit eating a fiber could have resulted in a blockage and presented like that.

I don't think the abdomen always feels hard with gas. If it feels full and he hasn't been eating, that could be the gas. The stomach and intestines are really long and involved, so different parts can feel differently. A particularly doughy feel usually means its empty. A drum-like feel I *think* means gas in the stomach. A swollen cecum is another feel altogether. Something else to look up and log for future reference.

There are a few rules -- hydration before nutrition for sure. And cold, sick rabbits should not be syringe fed at all.

But a rabbit with a gradual slowdown who has had normal poops that stops eating altogether is in danger of stasis, especially if there a chance of indigestible material in the gut (whether the fiber is synthetic or natural is somewhat of a moot point, I should have used the word 'foreign').

So yes, while you want hydration, you also want fiber and fluid and nothing that will potentially cause more gas. Pumpkin is good. But better yet, a fiber that doesn't cause gas but has extra vitamins and a pro-biotic that they will eat without much fuss. Critical Care. It really an awesome tool.

If he is eating on his own, it's not as important, but will help more that it will hurt. I am always concerned, though, that with gas as a byproduct that food at this stage is not going to add to that. (I doubt the veggies will, but there is that chance, Dill got gas from cilantro every time). Carbs and sugars will feed an imbalance as Claire noted, and veggies may not be the best thing for that either. Best prevention is hay and water, but anorexic rabbits don't always feel like eating hay and drinking enough. So we're back to the Critical Care. I'm not saying to force feed it to him, but if you have some and you can get him eating it mixed with whatever, it will probably be his best bet.

Rabbits oddly enough do have strong GI tracts and can digest a lot of odd things. I just wouldn't put all my eggs in the mattress. Don't rule out other issues.

The missed jump may not seem like much, but it could be significant. You can't rule out that any digestion issues, even including the slowdown with the mattress fibers, are symptoms of something else.


sas :clover:

 

[Pipp]

TinysMom wrote:

He did finish up his salad from last night - I'm guessing maybe 1 - 1 1/2 cups total. I'm about to give him more.

Yay!! How are his poops? I'm actually have a very similar problem with Mikel. He's slowed down, he's been uncomfortable for a couple of days now, he's still pooping good poops. And he's eating, but just not as much.


sas onder:

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

How is Zeus doing?

 

[TinysMom]

AngelnSnuffy wrote:

How is Zeus doing?

I am still VERY concerned about Zeus because he isn't eating nearly as much as he normally would - and I feel like he's not drinking enough.

HOWEVER - he did come up on the bed last night for snuggles - and stayed with me for a LONG time....like a couple of hours at least. He hasn't done that in days.

He's also showing more interest in life - I had boxes on the bed last night to get stuff out of them and he HAD to jump up and investigate them....something he wouldn't have done in the 48-72 hours prior to that as he just didn't seem to care.

I think he's partially been "self-medicating" by shredding a notebook he found. I notice he tears off part of a sheet and chews on it and then goes back for more. He's probably gone through 2-3 pages.

I have offered him hay - but he wants none of it. He's mainly eating cilantro and salads right now.

I guess I'd say based on his behavior I'm seeing signs of recovery - but I'm still concerned about him and don't feel like he's totally in the clear yet.

 

[pamnock]

Nutri Cal, Nutri Cal, Nutri Cal -- Good stuff

 

[JimD]

ray:

 

[tonyshuman]

Yeah, at this point, an appetite stimulant may not be a bad idea. Don't overdo it on the Nutrical, though, as it can be quite greasy if too much is given.

 

[pamnock]

Nutri Cal has B vitamins to stimulate the appetite. As well as vitamin E - good for the tummy, along with Omega fatty acids. The"greasy" texture is due to healthy oils.

 

[JimD]

Any updates on Zeus?

 

[TinysMom]

JimD wrote:

Any updates on Zeus?

Well - he's refusing pellets and hay. He will shred his notebook (he likes to pull out about 1/4 page at a time and chew on it) - and he will eat greens. He's not drinking at all - which really had me worried (or at least not that I could tell) - BUT - he's eating a LOT of greens.

His poops are smaller and darker than usual but - he is playing some and he is more affectionate.

Last night he ate a whole head of romaine lettuce (a small head) - well - he started on it last night and finished it up earlier this evening.

I am still concerned about his poops as they are smaller and a different color and he doesn't seem to poop as much as he used to.

But given his activity level - I'd say we're somewhat out of the woods.

Now to cure of him "SBS" (spoiled bunny syndrome) - that may be even harder!

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

Glad to hear he's dong ok. The Romaine will help get a bit of water into him. Have you flavored his water at all? That may work to get him to drink more, which is what he needs if you're seeing the small poos. Maybe give him some hay stuffed in a toilet roll, that may help him w/ eating hay, as it is a toy to them. Ya never know...

Best of luck!

Come on Zeus!

 

[Pipp]

The greens and lack of hay and pellets will make his poops small and dark, so that's normal under the circumstances. Not an indication of ill health, at least not on its own.

Good suggestion re: the rolls.

Have you tried different types of hay? Cubes? Grass?



sas onder:

 

[TinysMom]

I am going to edit this topic to "resolved".

I woke up today to find he'd eaten about 1/3 of the pellets in his bowl...and he was crunching on them and looking at me as if to say, "Was I too noisy? Did I wake you up?"

I'm sure my crying wasn't the best thing to encourage him - but I was so relieved.

Now to cure him of SBS since he thinks mama is supposed to be in the bedroom all day to pet him when he wants...

but I won't start a topic for that...