Probiotics Questions

[Jenk]

I'd like to pick members' brains about their knowledge/use of probiotics in rabbits.

1) Do you ever give probiotics to a bun who is not (nor was not recently) taking antibiotics?

2) At what other times (for what other reasons), do you offer your rabbits probiotics?

3) Which brand name of probiotic do you give and why?

4) Have you ever given probiotics to a megacolon bun when s/he may have been showing signs of gut disruption (e.g., smaller fecals, more misshapen fecals, etc.)?

a) What was the result?

5) When you give probiotics ("just because," rather than to balance out antibiotic treatment), do you worry about causing a gram-positive flora imbalance?

Thank you,

Jenk

 

[NorthernAutumn]

*bump for response*

 

[Jenk]

NorthernAutumn wrote:

*bump for response*

I'm guessing that people don't have answers, which wouldn't surprise me. No one--even rabbit-savvy professionals--don't agree on this topic.

 

[Flashy]

To be fair you would be hard pushed to find any topic that all rabbit savvy proffesionals agreed on. I think I said to you once before its about getting as much knowledge as you can and making your own gut decision based on that knowledge.

I only have hardy stomached buns and knew you were after info for your werd stomached buns.

I have used a probiotic when she wasn't taking anti-biotics. I used it because I thought her stomach looked swollen. With hindsight, it was an exceptionally wrong diet that did that to her (thanks to a rubbish vet and my own ignorance). She was on the pro biotic for many many months, probably about 6 or so with no negative occurances from it.

If I were to give it now I wouldn't worry about doing any negative, I would closely watch and assess what was happening with her gut if there were any chances and then make changes to what I was doing, accordingly.

We don't have great pro-biotics over her and the one I used was not a great one, although it was the only one around at the time.

I have also used pro biotics pre and post surgery for buns who may have gut issues after (this was Bio-Lapis and I only did this with a few) and used it in Sweep when he had his lump and stopped eating hay.

 

[Jenk]

I've held off all this time with regards to giving herprobiotics; I fear an imbalance possibly occurring, since both antibiotics and probiotics can cause one if they're not really necessary.

It is hard to know what to do; as we both agree, even the experts seem to be somewhat in the dark about the lagomorph's digestive system. Still, our girl is acting relativelyspunky (and is passing her usual odd fecals) while on a hay-only diet. I hope to slowly re-introduce at least a small amount of pellets to her again, though it's hard to know what, if anything, she can truly tolerate. *sigh*

 

[Amy27]

My rabbit savvy vet feels that the stomach is so acidic that probiotics don't survive and is not beneficial nor causes any harm. I don't know if I agree with her. I have actually given my rabbits things she said wouldn't survive in the stomach due to the acid because I am not sure if I really believe what she says. I have seen a lot of people use them on this site with good results. I just thought

I would give you her opinion. She has a ton of exotic experience and education. This is her website if you are interested in checking her out, just to give you an idea that she is rabbit savvy. I just think her opinion is one I have never heard before. I have always heard positive things about probiotics. http://www.cvrec.org/avianexotics.htm

 

[Jenk]

Amy27 wrote:

My rabbit savvy vet feels that the stomach is so acidic that probiotics don't survive and is not beneficial nor causes any harm. I don't know if I agree with her. I have actually given my rabbits things she said wouldn't survive in the stomach due to the acid because I am not sure if I really believe what she says. I have seen a lot of people use them on this site with good results. I just thought

I would give you her opinion. She has a ton of exotic experience and education. This is her website if you are interested in checking her out, just to give you an idea that she is rabbit savvy. I just think her opinion is one I have never heard before. I have always heard positive things about probiotics. http://www.cvrec.org/avianexotics.htm

I have read certain experts' opinions that probiotics--or at least certain ones--don't survive a rabbit's stomach acid. I do know, however, that my megacolon girl has had a moderate gram-positive growth, and it was a gram-positive bacteria that happened to be in the probiotic that she was getting at that time; so I suspect that at least some of the "good" bacteria can still survive the stomach.

I will check out the website that you've provided; I'm grateful to get whatever info. that I can get (though I realize that what your vet says may contradict what rabbit-savvy vets in my area say, which wouldn't be a huge surprise if that's the case...).

 

[Flashy]

Is she on any supplements or just hay by itself and only water?

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

Is she on any supplements or just hay by itself and only water?

No supplements at this time; just hay (2-3 types) and water to help "reset" her gut.

 

[Flashy]

I don't know much about nutrition (compared to what I know about other things) but my concern is that she won't be getting the vitamins and minerals she needs because she can't get them from hay alone. My concern would be that that could cause more problems.

What I don't know is if some sort of vitamins in her water might be worth a trying to at least give her some?

Maybe someone else might be able to weigh in on that. Randy often talks about Vitamin D which comes through sunlight and as an indoor rabbit she will lack that aspect and I believe that to be quite important.

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

I don't know much about nutrition (compared to what I know about other things) but my concern is that she won't be getting the vitamins and minerals she needs because she can't get them from hay alone. My concern would be that that could cause more problems.

I don't disagree with you, but when anything else seems to, at least in time, cause her to go back to the vet's, it becomes impossible after a while. The vet bills became so dang outrageous, that we must do whatever keeps her gut humming along without stopping.

Again, my present goal is to get her eating at least a tiny amount of pellets again; but I don't know if her gut will handle Oxbow BB/T. It seemed to previously until she ate a lot of plastic from a litter box and developed a major enteritis/flora imbalance/stasis issue.

What I don't know is if some sort of vitamins in her water might be worth a trying to at least give her some?

The problem with adding vitamins to water is the bacteria issue; it grows very quickly when anything like that is added to water. So you end up changing it about every four hours.

Maybe someone else might be able to weigh in on that. Randy often talks about Vitamin D which comes through sunlight and as an indoor rabbit she will lack that aspect and I believe that to be quite important.

Ironically, Randy's the only bun person who's ever told me that he believes certain rabbits can handle only hay and that he has (or had?) a rabbit that eats a hay-only diet due to its malfunctioning gut.

I'm a bit at my wit's end. If I feed greens (and/or pellets), our girl's gut runs the risk of eventually slowing/malfunctioning again. But I know that hay only offers micronutrients and fiber.

 

[Flashy]

I know, your position is very awkward and your poor buns and yourself are having a nightmare.

Have you tried Nutrical?

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

I know, your position is very awkward and your poor buns and yourself are having a nightmare.

Have you tried Nutrical?

I have not tried it, though a few RO members have mentioned it. Admittedly, I still worry about any new thing somehow disrupting Zoe's gut (causing irritation and/or gut flora imbalance).

Last night, I e-mailed my rabbits' vet to get her opinion on various supplements that might be least likely to cause gut upset. Granted, she may be able to only recommend Nutrical. But I'll feel better having her input (unless she says that there's nothing she typically recommends to supplement a rabbit's diet).