New bunny, new questions! :)

[Breeing]

Hello everyone!

So i just adopted a new male rabbit a week ago!
He's a 4lbs chunky holland lop which the last owners assumed to be around 5, however they really don't know..

Poor thing was kept on CEDAR bedding, given NO hay, kept in a medium dog kennel all day, no toys and given WALMART 'Food'....

He was VERY overweight at time of pick up and has now lost .5lbs. changed his food to martins timothy and is eating timothy hay very well and gets out for runs all day long.

Now i have 2 questions- Due to his unknown age (but probably around 5) and terrible past care, i would assume his kidneys and liver aren't working as well as they should. Getting him neutered would be a bad idea, no? I made an appointment to get him fixed but am an inch away from calling it off as i don't want to lose him after all he's been through.

He's very easy going and well behaved, doesn't spray, mount, hump, as well as almost litter box trained.

HOWEVER i brought him home so i could bond him with my other neutered 1.5 year old bun. With him being unaltered though- would that even be possible?

Percy (the new bun) is fine with Pippen (my younger one) but Pippen doesn't like Percy much yet. Ideas?

 

[Breeing]

I should mention i did bring him to the vets 2 days ago- 5 minutes and $70 later the vet said he's fine and seems healthy enough, just a little over weight... Nothing more, no test, etc. lol
So needless to say that didn't fill me with any more confidence.

I checked his teeth as well as the vets and they look fine (i couldn't see his molars, but incisors look good) which is very surprising considering he never had hay! But hey, i'm no complaining!

His scent glands on his bottom were filled and disgusting, so i have been gently trying to clean them out, do you know what caused his glands to get filled in the first place?

 

[Breeing]

Heres a quick crappy shot of him first day home with me, and first time in YEARS hes been clean and eating hay!!

 

[ladysown]

So basically you got a rabbit that was well cared for... to the point of being a bit overweight. NO problems on him not being fed hay...LOTS Of rabbits aren't fed hay and thrive. Yours is proof of that as well.

The fact that he is overweight is part of why his scent glands were full.... being overweight makes it harder to keep things clean, but then again, I've seen thin rabbits with full scent glands as well. Could be just part of who he is.

Lots of rabbits are also kept on cedar bedding. There have been a variety of studies on bedding for small animals and the biggest thing is ventilation. If the ventilation is poor, respiratory problems tend to ensue. My recommendation to my pet buyers is that they avoid cedar based on the inconclusive studies. Why risk something when there are so many other options out there?

Personally, I don't recommend neutering unless there is a need for it. He doesn't spray.. so what's the point? Are you wanting to colony your rabbits and therefore want to neuter him? Or is it that you've bought into the mantra that every pet rabbit needs to be neutered? Seriously...think hard on why you want to neuter him, if there is no solid reason to do it, why bother? It's surgery and every surgery is a risk.

 

[Breeing]

Thanks for your response, however I can't understand how you think he was well cared for, he was kept in a basement with little to no interactions in a small, dirty cage all his life with nothing to do, and what looked like old hamster food.
He was scared and unhappy.

Just because an animal can SURVIVE off of bad food and no essential hay doesn't mean it should be done, and certainly shouldn't be looked at as being well cared for. He just so happens to be a very hardy individual.

The main reason why i would like to have him neutered is so that i can pair him with my other male rabbit. From all i have read and what makes sense is that both males need to be fixed before bonded can occur.

I will ask this in the bonded forum of course, but figured i would ask it in the health question as well as its paired in this case with the neutering.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Our vet says unequivocally that Cedar is bad for bunnies. Pine if kiln dried it alright. The oldest we've had a male neutered was over 8 and 7 for a female--he lived for 4 more years and the female is still alive and just over 15. Looks like a cute bunny, and like all of ours, he's a rescue.

 

[Breeing]

Agreed, i use fleece baby blankets for my C&C cage for Percy right now, and in the litter boxes i use carefresh. I would NEVER use cedar, or even pine/ aspen.

I work at a petstore and help manage it. A year ago i started refusing to sell rabbits as every rabbit i sold would end up sick and untaken care of- i can't understand how breeders are able to keep sane knowing a lot of the animals they sell end up... poorly. I only take in rescues and rehome them through the store now.
Cedar i have refused to bring in and sell since i started working, and of course tell everyone i sell a small animal to that they should NEVER use cedar or pine.

Hay is a MUST for proper health and again anyone who says otherwise i would doubt their knowledge. For example Percy- although externally seems healthy enough, when i look at his droppings they were not formed properly and they were tiny. Now he's getting his system flushed out and his droppings have lightened up from black to light chocolate colouring and are getting larger by the day.

I consider 90% of an adult rabbits diet should be fresh timothy hay, 5% timothy pellets and 5% fresh veggies being the best diet and i have managed to stabilize many ill rabbits into decently healthy, happy ones on that diet.

But anyways, in terms of him being safe for neuter... i'm still in the air, i've already gotten quite close to him. :/

 

[rhianna]

I just adopted my first bunny the other day and he was living in similar conditions. He was kept in a small "rabbit" cage, on "softwood" bedding (another word for pine bedding that has not been kiln dried or dust-extracted), not fed any hay, not given any toys, and fed on an unstable diet that varied between kaytee fiesta and store-brand food, whichever was more convenient for the previous owner to purchase at her local store. I think neutering him would be helpful to you but is a bit risky given his age, although he seems healthy according to your vet. Good luck with whatever you decide to do :biggrin:

 

[JBun]

If he's not exhibiting any unwanted hormonal behavior, you may be ok skipping the neuter. Though males can sometimes have problems with cancer, it's not as common as it is for unspayed females. But with bonding, it most often doesn't work to try and bond unaltered males, and they are very prone to vicious fighting. But there are the rare occasions where unaltered males can bond. Several years ago I had a neighbor with two bonded unaltered male rabbits. They both had very laid back easy going personalities and weren't terribly hormonal, which I'm sure is why a bond was even possible. But even getting him neutered doesn't guarantee that they will bond.


If you want to go ahead with a neuter, with your concerns it would probably be a good idea to have a blood test done to check his organ function and make sure he is healthy. The older they get, it does increase the risk.

 

[DogCatMom]

I'd let this guy stabilize longer, maybe even a few months, before making a decision on neutering.

Even if you do neuter him, there's no guarantee that the bonding will work, so you will have put him at risk (the surgery itself) for... ? There are no female rabbits nearby for him to impregnate--or are there? (The posts aren't clear on this point.)

It would be a shame to get him into good condition and then lose him to a bad anesthetic reaction or have a post-anesthetic reaction disable him in some way. (There's another thread going on right now about a sudden post-op disability in a 5-month-old bunny. )

Try housing your two boys next to one another but in separate "homes" (cages, pens, whatever you use) for a while before making a decision. They may choose to lie down next to one another at the cage/pen walls and give you clues as to how they feel about one another.

 

[Korr_and_Sophie]

I would give him a bit more time before neutering him. It can take time for any toxins to work their way out. A blood test can be a good idea, but some don't pick up everything.
For bonding, neutering is pretty much a must. However, not all rabbits will get along even if neutered. Males tend to be hard to bond with another male. I would not recommend trying to bond with him being intact.
I would say that unless he has some bad hormonal behaviours, you don't really need to get him neutered. There is a risk of testicular cancer, but surgery can be risky as well, especially if he is a bit older and might have other issues. I am not sure what options you have for vets, the one you went to doens't seem all that good, so you may need to look to find a more competent vet.

 

[Breeing]

Thanks for your posts.

I only have one other rabbit who is a neutered 1.5 year old male- The one i want to eventually bond him with.
I agree, i will cancel Wednesdays neuter and wait a while before reconsidering, do some more research as well.
Its quite funny, just after starting this thread Percy has become ALIVE! He's suddenly gotten very humpy and excitable, he's been more active than i have EVER scene and very loving!! Before this he would mainly just sit around and eat, be quite shy and yea, just not do much, and put up with anything.

I guess hes just starting to settle in and become happy!! Like i said, he has NEVER acted like this, not in his last homes and not with me till now.

He's starting to seem like a young rabbit suddenly!! Sheesh...!

 

[Breeing]

And i should mention i had always heard males could never be bonded which is why i was aiming to bring home a female, and Percy (previously Pancake....) came up as needing to be rehomed asap, they said he was a spayed female! When i saw the condition "she" was being kept in there was no way i was going to leave 'her' there. When i came home with her, i did an exam right away and when i flipped her over.... 'she' was in fact a boy! lol...

Now i have done TOONS of research and have come up with many many different answers and opinions on bonding males.. and almost everyone is saying it can be done, it may just take little longer... But ideally both be neutered.

 

[ladysown]

folks.. please....if LOTS of breeders can maintain their rabbits on a hay free diet .. WHY...just answer this please... If breeders can do it and their rabbits remain healthy (and they have to be healthy in order to breed AND show well)... WHY can't pet people maintain their rabbits without hay? What is the difference?

But seriously... maintain your rabbit for a while, THEN make the decision on how to care for him long term. Let him settle for at LEAST a month.

 

[Breeing]

Have you been to actual breeding facilities, ones where the rabbits are stuffed in tiny cages barely big enough to move around let alone have babies, stuck on disgusting large grated floors and given straight no nutrient pellet foods? Where they are so sick they can barely move and have open wounds, overgrown teeth, toe nails so long they have grown back into the foot, etc?

THOSE rabbits are able to still breed. So you can't use the whole "a rabbit needs to be healthy to breed" thing to get out of the need to get them essential care...

I don't mean to sound rude or anything by this paragraph, but i can't stand seeing bad information given out when its a living creature that could suffer from it.


SOME rabbits and other animal are hardy enough to SURVIVE without proper care and diet, but most are not. I have rescued many rabbits from situations, and Percy is the only one who has done decently well from no hay, and even then you can tell he has some serious internal issues that need to be cleared up and flushed out with the high fiber before he is all better. The only hail marry and reason why his teeth are not overgrown is because they were nice enough to give him a large block of wood which he chewed to bits.

And even with that wood chew and his incisors being well enough his molars are in fact long, and needing to be cut down- which they were going to do when he was being neutered, as the molar is really bugging his one side.

I am going to hold off neutering him for now and wait it out for a little while, i'm perfectly fine with that and understand the reasoning.

 

[zombiesue]

folks.. please....if LOTS of breeders can maintain their rabbits on a hay free diet .. WHY...just answer this please... If breeders can do it and their rabbits remain healthy (and they have to be healthy in order to breed AND show well)... WHY can't pet people maintain their rabbits without hay? What is the difference?

But seriously... maintain your rabbit for a while, THEN make the decision on how to care for him long term. Let him settle for at LEAST a month.

You could probably survive and function well on nothing but french fries, doesnt make it a good idea

I agree that a hay-free diet isnt fatal by itself, but it has been credited in breaking up clumps in the digestive tract. And most of them seem to love it. I think thats the real reason that people are so hay-crazy.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Rabbit Forum mobile app

 

[ladysown]

i breed rabbits, and I know a lot of rabbit breeders. I have yet meet one that meets that description that you gave out. and I've been to some big operations.

SOME choose to feed hay, some choose not to feed hay, and regardless of what they do their rabbits thrive. Clean eyes, good feet, good teeth and so forth.

One of the things I have learned over my years of breeding rabbits is that rabbits are a multi-purpose animal that can thrive under a variety of feeding paradigms.

The breeders that I know of rarely if ever have a rabbit with gut stasis, respiratory issues and such like.

The breeders that I know of rarely deal with aggressive animals because they TRAIN their rabbits to be nicely behaved. After all we feed them, house them, care for them... they should NOT get away with being poorly behaved. They handle their rabbits alot, they breed for tolerance in their rabbits, they breed for health, colour, stamina, breeding to type and more.

They don't get sore hocks, hutch burn, and so on and so forth and guess what.. they most of the time raise them on wire floors with resting boards or without because it's the easiest, cleanest, and healthiest way to raise rabbits well.

Are there nasty breeders out there? FOR SURE. but please do not lock us all into one category telling us we are uninformed people because our experience and knowledge speaks to the awareness there is more than one way to raise a rabbit and raise it well. Rabbits in poor shape DO NOT breed well. Can they breed? for sure, can they breed well and raise their kits well? No.

Can hay be beneficial? For sure.
Can a pellet free high hay and grain diet work? For sure
Can a hayless, pellet only diet work? For sure.
Can a feeding cubed hay work? For sure.
Can feeding greens in lieu of hay work? Definitely.
Can feeding a small amount of pellets, a large amount of hay and lots of veggies work? yes. But it's odd...many who do this regime get rabbits with gut stasis (as per the sheer number of posts I see on this board and others). And it makes me wonder.. What is wrong? what is off with this feeding paradigm that so many rabbits fed a low pellet, high greens and hay diet... what about it causes issues? Is that breeders sell their poorer quality stock to pet homes and pet stores? Is it something in the green matter that creates the issue? Is it the lack of a well balanced diet for the salts and minerals? What causes the problems that are so often seen in pet homes? is it a overall lack of breeding for health and stamina first? It makes me very curious.

Care well for your bunnies, but please... keep your minds open to the fact there is more than one way to raise a rabbit and to raise it well.

 

[Breeing]

I am not going to get into this conversation with you, I have had a horrible night.
Just got back from a house where i had to check a rabbit out that was not eating hay, his teeth were growing out of his mouth. And i had to wrap up another one that was dead on the floor due to unknown death.-I can give a guess as to what caused it though, of course.

I have had WAY too many of these cases and ones like it, i could give you examples- but that would take pages. And i'm sorry, but again, i have no tolerance for people who 'disagree' just because they and some of their people have had luck feeding other ways as in the end the rabbits are the ones who get the shaft.

And this is not the issue at hand, i had no questions regarding his diet that i am giving- as he is now healthy and happy on a hay, veggies, and FEW pellet diet. Healthier and happy than he has EVER been.

 

[Breeing]

I have rescued MANY sick, close to death rabbits, mostly in such poor shape because of their high pellet diet.
They have ALL made full recoveries from me simply switching them from pellets to 70-80% high quality fresh timothy grass hay, timothy pellets (ONLY 1 tbsp. every 3 days) and 1/2 cup fresh organic veggies every other day.

Along with this i give them oxbow immune support tablets, multi vitamins and papaya tabs 2x week.

No matter what other diets i have tried, things never improve 100%.

 

[Watermelons]

Okay folks. Lets take a moment and read the forum decorum and rules.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f39/rabbitsonline-forum-policy-decorum-10320/

Breeing - If this new rabbit is to be bonded with your current one, get a pre-surgical blood panel done and if all check out, get him neutered, then attempt bonding. Done and done.

Many people care for rabbits in different ways, and this forum is open to ALL of them.
What has been stated in your original post as "bad" may only be bad to you, and works very well for many many other people.
Ladysown has made many valued points in your topic. Different things work for different people just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it's incorrect.

However the arguing between you two will not be tolerated on the open forum, and if you wish to continue, take it to PM.
This is a warning to you both, Breeing and Ladysown.

Breeing, your questions have been more then answered here, so this topic will now be closed.