Need advice/shoulder to cry on

[Panacrent1]

Hi, haven't been around for probably ten years...
Bun is pretty old. I was always around the forum when she was a baby.

Her name is angie and she is probably not 15 but getting close.

She has had boughts of sickness but always bounces back.
She is getting so frail and has had some off days lately.

Tonight she was laying in her litter pan and wanted to get up to greet me but seemed like her hind legs would not cooperate.

I know I've been so lucky to have her so long but I'm torn between euthanasia or at home...
Mostly I'm scared she will have a fit while I'm at work and no one will find her all day.

I know her time is limited and she's not nearly the first fuzzy love I've lost, and I used to work at a vets office. But somehow I'm still lost what to do for her.

Guess I'm just looking for some old or new friends to lean on...
Thanks guys

Katie and Angie

 

[BlackMiniRex]

Oh no poor girl
Is their no one who can 'babysit' her while your at work?
She could have arthritis due to her age.
Euthanasia is up to you, if you do really think she is in a lot of pain, then putting her down might be best

 

[RavenousDragon]

I don't know if this helps or not, but many places and veterinarians are willing to do at-home euthanasias which may be the best option for you and your little one. I'm so glad she has you in her life to lover her and care for her so much. <3

 

[Panacrent1]

Thanks you guys. I think we will try to get in to the vet in the morning before work. We are a 30 minute drive now from him, so that stinks, but he's always been good when she needed antibiotics.
I'm friends with a vet from my old hospital and he might be able to come do the euth, but honestly he is a dog/cat vet I don't know if he'd be ok with Angies tiny veins..

My mom might be able to come by during the day some days.that's a good idea, thank you <3

At least she ate most of a treat just now, been cuddling for about an hour. Wants to chew my phone cord too. And her ears felt a little chilled but now she's all toasty even giving me kisses!!

 

[BlackMiniRex]

Glad she's feeling a bit better

 

[JBun]

I'll just share what I did for my old bun who was 10. She had arthritis that affected her mobility making it difficult for her to hop around. She was on meds that did help, but gradually she lost use of her hind legs. She could shuffle about some but not too far. I decided not to pts because she coped well with her limited mobility and still seemed happy within herself. She still got excited about food and liked to be groomed by her bunny friend, and just generally seemed her usual self, just an older and less mobile self.

It did take a lot more to care for her though. I had to make sure she was staying clean and dry. Because of her difficulty moving around I would have to check on her throughout the day and night to make sure she could get to her food and water. So it did require me(or someone else) to be around at least every 4 hours to check on her. As far as enrichment and company, she did sleep a lot because of her old age, so I think mobility problems weren't as much a mental difficulty as it might have been for a younger bun. She pretty much got up to eat and drink, say hi to her friend, then was sleeping again. And her bunny companion helped keep her company when she was awake. So taking in account all of these factors, I felt it was ok for me to just let her live out her life. But it's never an easy decision to make, and what is best is going to be different for each individual animal. I think you just have to determine whether there is still a good quality of life there despite the old age issues that occur, and if there is sufficient good health to ensure that she can enjoy that remaining time.

 

[Panacrent1]

You're right jbun. That's what I would tell people on the phone : it's all about quality of life.

Some animals you just know when they are tired of fighting. Midget, my cat, fight breast cancer for a while but I saw when she was just to tired and was in a lot of pain.

With angie though... I know she's really old, and she used to be a healthy weight- now I can feel every verterbrae on her back when I pet her. She used to hold her self upright when I picked herup and lately she's been feeling... weaker? More limp? In my hand.
She's been having some urinary accidents outside the litter -which she's only done before if we accidentally give her too much of a certain kind if greens (it would be discolored as well for a day or two) but cleared up quickly.

One of the floors in the cage is tile, and her little bun legs have just started slipping out from her when she's trying to stand still -she used to slip a bit but it's getting worse abd now I realize the carpeted floors are a jump up and I never see her using them anymore.

Of course, like usual she's a little perkier this morning than last night. It's this back and forth between her bad days, which are becoming more frequent, and her good days, which have been becoming just ok days.

I guess I will have to try to find a solution for the slippery floor. I'm thinking I might also have to put her hay on the floor in stead of on the wall, for easier access.

You have already given me several helpful ideas that you have used for your aging bun, but any one else with additional ones, whatever worked for you guys, I'd be so grateful to know. <3

I know I will be increasing my cuddle time with her.

Katie

 

[RavenousDragon]

I agree 100% with what Jbun said. If one of my rabbits (thankfully at this time both the rabbits I have are young and mostly healthy *knocks on wood) lost use of her back legs, I am not even sure her life would change at all. She loves to pretty much just sleep and snuggle and eat. The other one, if he lost his mobility, his quality of life would be terrible- his only happiness comes from sprinting everywhere all the time . So if you feel that your bun is happy and comfortable, then there is no need to euthanize.

 

[BlackMiniRex]

I agree with JBun, if your rabbits is still enjoying life then putting her down would be a mistake. What about towels for the slippery floor? is there a way that you could wrap the towel around the tile or something? Then maybe add another one to her to play with or take a nap on

 

[JBun]

I don't know if this flooring set up will work for you, but it seemed to work well for my bun. She couldn't urinate properly and eventually not in her litter box due to the hind limb issues, so she always had to have an absorbent layer underneath her. The base floor was tile, so I bought those foam puzzle mats at costco so there would be a cushioning layer. I also got their big box of disposable puppy pads and then put out a layer of puppy pads over the foam mat(though wouldn't work for buns who want to chew the puppy pads), and just changed out each puppy pad as needed. For a few months that worked as she still could hop around some but was just unsteady and couldn't always make it to the litter box. But as she gradually lost use of her hind legs she would more often just be in a much smaller area and the puppy pads would get too saturated too quickly, plus she needed extra padding to lay on. So at that point I added a couple of layers of towels in the main area where she was most of the time, to help absorb more of her urine. Over the towels was a faux fleece/vet bed layer to keep the urine drained away from her and keep her dry, plus give her the needed extra cushioning. I changed the towels and soiled puppy pads twice a day and the vet bed once a day. This all worked really well at keeping her clean and dry.

If your bun has urination issues where her fur is getting wet from it, you may also want to consider keeping the affected area shaved to make it easier to keep the skin/fur clean and dry. You may also need to use vaseline or some other barrier cream if the skin starts getting irritated from the urine, though I didn't have to apply any on my buns skin as it never got irritated. If you haven't already seen this link it's worth checking out. It has info and tips on caring for disabled buns that might be helpful.
http://www.disabledrabbits.com/

I found it was just adapting things as the circumstances changed. Sometimes something didn't work out very well and I had to find a better solution, and this is the set up I ended up with.

 

[Panacrent1]

Wow, this is a great help!
I will be trying a lot of these out.
Vet said definitly arthritic especially in her left knee. We are trying medication to make it hurt less.

Im going to take her shelves out completely and look for those rubber squares.

Im sure ill be back with more questions:weee:

 

[JBun]

Lots of places have the foam tiles, like home improvement stores, online stores, etc. I just got mine at Costco because they had the best price for them. They were $14 for an 8 pack of 2x2 squares, but you can only get them in the store and not all stores will have them. They are the same as these ones on amazon which cost 3 times as much.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BN3OTQ4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
If you want to get the tiles off amazon, there are better prices then for the ones above. These next ones aren't too bad a price.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013A4ASRW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I've also ordered tiles from this company as well.
http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/soft-tiles.html

Meloxicam made a big difference for my old bun, but only when she was getting a high enough dose which was 0.6mg/kg, split into two daily doses. Otherwise she would show signs of being uncomfortable when the dose wasn't quite high enough. The meloxicam didn't help with the function of her hind legs after she lost use of them, but it did still help with her overall comfort level. If your vet prescribes meloxicam/metacam(and the dose is sufficient), I would be surprised if you didn't see some improvement in your buns overall level of comfort and activity. It really does seem to help out these old arthritic buns quite a bit.

I hope it all goes well and you are able to sort out what will work best for your bun. Feel free to ask any questions you have. I'm happy to answer if I can.

 

[Panacrent1]

Ok, the vet first thought .3ml once a day was her dose as shes down to 3lbs 8 ounces the other day.
I split her onto two doses each at .2ml ... today is the second day so she has only had the .2 three times now.
She seems "uncomfortable" as you put it still this morning. Ie wants to be hidden in her plastic house, breathing rate seems ok but it is like she is taking really big breaths. And she sits with her legs under her strangely now. Like she slouches down and a little left making it like she's trying to lay on her side but she never gets there.so sometimes she ends up with her front feet crossed over each other and her hind left kinda under her.
It's hard to describe, but the only thing I could get her interested to eat today was the metacam.
I guess I can call and ask if I can do 2.5 twice tomorrow if no change.

I did manage to get a foam mat which is helping her get around and into her hideyhouse. But she just doesn't want to go anywhere...
Sigh. I just want her to be comfy :/

 

[JBun]

At this point I would see it as an urgency to get the pain under control right away, since it sounds like your rabbit isn't eating due to pain. I would ask the vet about upping the metacam dose right away. There is a much higher dosing used for rabbits, for acute pain/short term use at 1.0-1.5mg/kg per day, so for your rabbit that would be 0.5-0.75ml twice a day. I would personally want to start out at the highest dose, just to get the pain under control, then once that is accomplished start reducing the dose a little each day to find the best maintenance dose. There is also the option of also using tramadol to help with pain. The higher dosing reference for the meloxicam comes from 'The Textbook of Rabbit Medicine' by M. Varga, in case you need the info for your vet.
http://vgr1.com/metacam/

For rabbits good pain control is essential. With high doses of meloxicam there is some risk of kidney damage, but for older rabbits you have to also take into account that it is important to help make their final time comfortable for them.

I'm not sure what you are seeing with the breathing issue. It could be a pain response. Though if your bun is having any respiratory difficulty you should get her to the vet right away. Also if your rabbit isn't eating on her own now, syringe feeding is essential so stasis doesn't occur.

 

[Panacrent1]

Jbun what would I do without you!! <3<3
The meloxicam link you gave me was just what I needed right now.I had called the vet and she's worried if angie wasn't eating, the metacam might upset her stomach exacerbating the problem.
I realize how important every day is so I'm killing myself mentally trying to make sure I go high enough on the med.but now her poops are so small and dry it's crushing my heart.
I couldn't get any of the oxbow critical care powder today, it had to be ordered. I got some unsweetened pumpkin and she was super interested in the smell and had three small bites.then the smell still interested her but she wouldn't take any more of her own volition. Of course I only have the tiny metacam syringe and none to hand feed her with so I'm like really mad at myself. Thank god though after she ate the pumpkin bites she started nibbling on her hay (favorite part -the seeds)
She ate slowly for about five minutes and then she rested.now she is munching slowly again. I feel like I can breathe a little more every piece she eats. I haven't seen her drink any water and I'm concerned it hasn't changed since this morning so that's my next goal -water.
I think if/when she has another small snack I will give her the metcam. I am thinking to go higher, like .4 . That would give her a total of .6 today and then tomorrow I will have to decide again given how she feels later tonight and again in the morning. The article you sent said that some buns do better twice a day half dose(whatever their dose is) and some do better once a day full dose(whatever their dose is). It seems like such a guessing game, but at least I know that for a short period the dose can be higher.
Ugh I haven't eaten anything I'm 12 hours myself- hard to eat when I'm sad and distraught and can't even spend all my time with her. Guess I can't take care of her if I starve myself.
Thanks again. I hope you know how much your wisdom and kind ears are to me right now.

P.s. she's laying down and stretching out right now, almost like everything was normal. Haven't seen that since Monday night. Alhamdoulilahi thanks to God

 

[Panacrent1]

Well, I went to bed relieved and hopeful, but this morning there is a new symptom.
She has some neuro signs; she is slowly turning, seems to be similar to the slouch she was doing but then she ends up rotating her body.
I don't see an actual head tilt yet... but she seems dizzy.still responsive to me.
She seems unable to drink from her bottle but is using a bowl well.

I'm going to the emergency vet today. I can't give up.maybe it's an ear infection, maybe it's e cunic, maybe it's something else. I'll keep you posted...

 

[katiecrna]

I am praying for you and your little bun. Hope everything is ok. It sounds like she had a great long life with a great bun mom.

 

[Panacrent1]

Thanks for everything, everyone.
Angie went over the rainbow bridge yesterday to be with max.
It hurts to much to go into detail, so I will just say we found some really angry cancer on ultrasound yesterday and it took everything I had to not selfishly keep her just because I wasn't ready to say goodbye yet.

 

[BlackMiniRex]

i am so sorry for your loss
i can tell you took care of her amazingly

 

[katiecrna]

Sorry for your loss. So sad.